Build Thread - Oh what a tangled web I’ve woven - Spyder GT #11

[HotWheelsKid]

During the wait for mk4 kit to arrive, I found and acquired a nearly untouched Spyder GT. #11 of 39. Previously unknown to the registries, but it’s now back on the grid. Woo hoo!

I ordered the mk4 kit in April of 21, and it was delivered in Nov of 21. The day it was delivered I was at build school in Flint, MI. I highly recommend that experience, even with a lot of wrench time under a belt, it sure is nice to see one go together and have some context for these kits. But unfortunately I missed out on the kit arrival experience.

With the addition of the spyder GT and the prospect of 2 kits at once, combined with a lack of specific connection to the mk4, I decided to take up an offer to purchase it from me.

That said, I’m now all in on the spyder and super excited to have such a rare kit.

[HotWheelsKid]

[HotWheelsKid]

Since the kit is relatively old, not many were made, I know I’ll have a ton of questions. I’m hoping to lean heavily on the expertise found in this forum. I had posted a couple questions on FB earlier but I figured I might as well get it into the forum ASAP and get everyone’s input.

The kit relied heavily on donor parts. The front LCA is the ffr piece. and UCA is what appears to be an old version of the current ffr piece. The spindle appears to be a fox spindle. My plan was to redo it all with new ffr spindles, but many on FB have said it wouldn’t work without frame modification. I believe them, but I don’t understand why. I have a bunch of photos to upload to give the picture of what I’ve measured and compared already, but would love to get a very understanding of what is going on here. And what the recommendations would be. (I.e. new ffr spindle vs sn95 spindle)

This shows the current configuration:


All my samples:
Left to right
1. New FFR spindle on FFR LCA.
2. Fox spindle on FFR LCA.
3. Fox spindle on Ford LA
4. Sn95? Spindle on Ford LA


This is new FFR spindle with the new ffr UCA with all adjustments as tight as possible. Clearly it doesn’t work.


But if you adjust them all the way out (which is not a good idea and would require a new adjuster to be fabricated) and mount the UCA to the underside of the frame mounting tab, it does reach:




I also took a bunch of measurements off the spyder frame and the mk4 frame (its waiting to be picked up by Stewart and delivered to its new owner). Ill post those findings next.

[HotWheelsKid]

I took all these measurements to try to help me understand where the differences are between a mk4 and spyder GT and the use of the ffr spindle.

Distance between driver and pass LCA mounting tabs: 25.5” (the same)



Distance between driver and pass UCA mounting tabs: 29.5” and 31” (not the same, but close, maybe not close enough?)



Distance between UCA and LCA: 10.5” and 9” (not the same, but close, maybe not close enough?)




Again, I’m not sure what I need to be looking for and why? Any help is greatly appreciated.

It’s been suggested that in-order to use the FFR spindles the UCA tab would have to be modified/relocated. But, ill go back to my goal. I want to use the best parts available that make the most sense. The spyder will be closer to a daily driver than a track monster. I’m more than happy to use the sn95 spindles and any other associated parts (bumpsteer compensation etc) But most of all I’d like to understand the why for either suggestion.

[JohnK]

I can't speak to whether lengthening the UCA's is a good idea or not from a geometry standpoint, but FWIW the FFR UCA's are put together using SPC Performance components. You can find longer adjusters here:

https://www.spcalignment.com/race

[GoDadGo]

If you are having a tough time sorting out your UPC's, then maybe SPC can help.
They've got all sorts of stuff that may be of use to you.

https://www.spcalignment.com/race

Hope This Helps & Good Luck!

[HotWheelsKid]

I can't speak to whether lengthening the UCA's is a good idea or not from a geometry standpoint, but FWIW the FFR UCA's are put together using SPC Performance components. You can find longer adjusters here:

https://www.spcalignment.com/race

Cool, I hadn’t seen this yet. I am going to try to use the FFR spindles and make the necessary modifications.

[HotWheelsKid]

If you are having a tough time sorting out your UPC's, then maybe SPC can help.
They've got all sorts of stuff that may be of use to you.

https://www.spcalignment.com/race

Hope This Helps & Good Luck!

Thanks for the link. I think this is the way to go as well!
Thanks for the encouragement.

[KDubU]

Very cool! I saw one at the first open house I attended and like it. Will be following along to see this one come to fruition.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey, I found you here after we have had some discussions via Facebook! As I mentioned then frame mods are necessary to relocate the upper control arm mounting points for the proper geometry to be compatible with the FFR spindles. Here is the part number for the kit and the procedure. Note that this is directed to the Challenge car however the front suspension as far as the UCSs are concerned on them, the pre Mk4 roadsters and pre Gen3 Coupes (and therefore the Spyder) is the same.

https://www.factoryfiveparts.com/con...m-retrofit.pdf

You mentioned bump steer, and that will be a big one for you. The rack location was changed to improve the geometry and eliminate bump steer on the Mk3 roadster and later Coupes, long after the Spyders were produced. If you compare where it is located on your Spyder to the Mk4 you'll see that it is lower and farther forward. Any modifications you make to move the rack will also have to consider getting the radiator back to where it belongs and will affect the steering shaft.

None of this is insurmountable; just trying to give you an idea of some of the challenges you may face. I look forward to following along!

Jeff

[HotWheelsKid]

Jeff, Thank you again. This is exactly the direction i want to go. Based upon Mike digiorgios recommendation i had followed up with ffr to get that bracket. I haven’t heard back yet. I do still have the Mk4 kit here so i can make a template and with the instructions you’ve provided (So awesome to have), this seems like a no-brained way to go.

I am so appreciative for yours and others willingness to help out on these forums.

The next item to tackle is the pedal box. It seems donor mustang is the only real option without fabrication? Ive mocked up the wilwood pedal box from the mk4 into the frame. It definitely has some challenges (but not insurmountable).

Hey, I found you here after we have had some discussions via Facebook! As I mentioned then frame mods are necessary to relocate the upper control arm mounting points for the proper geometry to be compatible with the FFR spindles. Here is the part number for the kit and the procedure. Note that this is directed to the Challenge car however the front suspension as far as the UCSs are concerned on them, the pre Mk4 roadsters and pre Gen3 Coupes (and therefore the Spyder) is the same.

https://www.factoryfiveparts.com/con...m-retrofit.pdf

You mentioned bump steer, and that will be a big one for you. The rack location was changed to improve the geometry and eliminate bump steer on the Mk3 roadster and later Coupes, long after the Spyders were produced. If you compare where it is located on your Spyder to the Mk4 you'll see that it is lower and farther forward. Any modifications you make to move the rack will also have to consider getting the radiator back to where it belongs and will affect the steering shaft.

None of this is insurmountable; just trying to give you an idea of some of the challenges you may face. I look forward to following along!

Jeff

[HotWheelsKid]

I have a call into Mike Everson today to discuss some of the options for the pedal box. I’d prefer to not use donor parts, but if its the preferred/recommended approach, well then Mike has some nice restored options available.

[HotWheelsKid]

I just heard back. So awesome to get good information in a timely way. Again, much appreciated to all who share.

Per mike:
The complete upgrade uses these 3 parts

15154 - relocation bracket
14850 - front spindles
15344 - Upper control arms

…Based upon Mike digiorgios recommendation i had followed up with ffr to get that bracket. I haven’t heard back yet.

[GoDadGo]

Thanks for the link. I think this is the way to go as well!
Thanks for the encouragement.

For the record, I begged Dave Smith to build me a Spyder when I ordered my MK-4.
It would have been the perfect platform for my driveline, but Super Dave said "No!" so my Chevy Cobra was born.

Good Luck & Hope To See Your Completed Spyder In Person One Day, Hopefully At Cruising The Coast!

HAPPY WRENCHING, RIVETING, SANDING & ASSEMBLING!

Steve
FF5 MK-4 #8,515
https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-ne...-mk4-roadster/

[HotWheelsKid]

And repeat!

HAPPY WRENCHING, RIVETING, SANDING & ASSEMBLING!

Once i got the spyder, my mk4 was immediately on the back burner. I like things not everyone has. I can always get the roadster again. Plus with all I’ve learned throughout the wait for it to arrive, i think there’s some things i may do differently when/if i get one in the future.

One thing i know about myself is that I don’t hold onto many things for very long. Especially cars and trucks. There are just too many i want to try out. The goal with the kit/kits, is to slow the turnover down a little bit.

[HotWheelsKid]

Did anyone have a suggestion for a pedal box other than a reconditioned original Mustang pedal? The wilwood pedal box i used for the mock up is not mine so i have to remove it. I am also concerned about the rear facing master cylinders into the dash area. If anyone has a recommendation, I’d appreciate it.

I have a call into Mike Everson today to discuss some of the options for the pedal box. I’d prefer to not use donor parts, but if its the preferred/recommended approach, well then Mike has some nice restored options available.

[Jeff Kleiner]

The Wilwood box will require a significant rework to the footbox panels. The advantage to the Wilwood box is the balance bar that allows for easy adjustments to the brake bias.The Mustang box will bolt right in and allow you to bend the pedals to suit your preference. If you're using Mustang derived brakes I'd stick with the Mustang box and master cylinder. It will also allow you to use vacuum assist if desired---don't forget that if you stay with manual brakes the brake pedal has to be modified to change the pivot point for proper leverage.

Jeff

[HotWheelsKid]

After a lot of comparing between the MK4 frame and the spyder frame, I’m really aware of how different they are. (Shocker, right).
I want to build this car right within the context of 2022, rather than 2003. I can make the modifications to the frame needed to replicate the MK4 geometry as follows:
1. Remove existing x brace,



2. Install new x brace
2a. New x brace position will move rearward by 1-1.5” (tbd),



2b. Spyder x brace connects to the shock towers just above the frame rails. Mk4 x brace connects to the frame rails. Results in a more “open/wider” x.



3. Spyder steering rack attaches to the frame directly above the front LCA frame attachment. MK4 steering rack attaches to the frame behind the front LCA frame attachment.




Results in a drastic change in steering geometry. Spyder steering is in a straight line from spindle to spindle. MK4 steering is more trapezoid with the spindles/tie rods forward of the rack.




3. Install the SAI mod from FFR
4. Install LCA, new UCA, and FFR spindles, have a beer.


So, to sum, it up:
I need help to understand/decide if the modifications are worth the investment (which I don’t mind making) with the goal of obtaining better steering geometry that i will actually benefit from. Or is it really ok to leave it alone and i will have no complaints with the steering?

I thought i had a set of ffr spindles lined up, but they are no longer available. Unfortunately the FFR spindles i have been using for mockup are not mine and will be gone soon. I will be ordering the new spindles and UCA’s with hopes that they wont take too long to get. So in the meantime, i will build with the existing UCA’s that i have (the old versions) and a set of SN95 spindles that i have laying around.

[HotWheelsKid]

Jeff,

Exactly the type of advice i was hoping to receive. Thanks!

If I understand correctly then: If I’m not going to upgrade to wilwoods, and will stay with mustang based brakes, then it’s not necessary to install/fab anything more than the mustang pedal box. Great, saves me time, money, and hassle.

The Wilwood box will require a significant rework to the footbox panels. The advantage to the Wilwood box is the balance bar that allows for easy adjustments to the brake bias.The Mustang box will bolt right in and allow you to bend the pedals to suit your preference. If you're using Mustang derived brakes I'd stick with the Mustang box and master cylinder. It will also allow you to use vacuum assist if desired---don't forget that if you stay with manual brakes the brake pedal has to be modified to change the pivot point for proper leverage.

Jeff

[HotWheelsKid]

Too long; didn’t read -
1. Spyder has old steering geometry:
A. Steering rack sits on top of front LCA mounts. Tie rod end to tie rod end is a straight line.
B. Re-assemble the front end and move on.
2. MK4 has new steering geometry:
A. Steering rack sits behind front LCA mounts. Tie rod ends to tie rod end is a trapezoid shape.
B. Requires a lot of fabrication/time. But it is do-able.
Big question:
Will I be happy enough with the spyder steering as is with SAI mod and SN95 spindles?

Opinions wanted!

After a lot of comparing between the MK4 frame and the spyder frame, I’m really aware of how different they are. (Shocker, right).
I want to build this car right within the context of 2022, rather than 2003. I can make the modifications to the frame needed to replicate the MK4 geometry as follows:
1. Remove existing x brace,



2. Install new x brace
2a. New x brace position will move rearward by 1-1.5” (tbd),



2b. Spyder x brace connects to the shock towers just above the frame rails. Mk4 x brace connects to the frame rails. Results in a more “open/wider” x.



3. Spyder steering rack attaches to the frame directly above the front LCA frame attachment. MK4 steering rack attaches to the frame behind the front LCA frame attachment.




Results in a drastic change in steering geometry. Spyder steering is in a straight line from spindle to spindle. MK4 steering is more trapezoid with the spindles/tie rods forward of the rack.




3. Install the SAI mod from FFR
4. Install LCA, new UCA, and FFR spindles, have a beer.


So, to sum, it up:
I need help to understand/decide if the modifications are worth the investment (which I don’t mind making) with the goal of obtaining better steering geometry that i will actually benefit from. Or is it really ok to leave it alone and i will have no complaints with the steering?

I thought i had a set of ffr spindles lined up, but they are no longer available. Unfortunately the FFR spindles i have been using for mockup are not mine and will be gone soon. I will be ordering the new spindles and UCA’s with hopes that they wont take too long to get. So in the meantime, i will build with the existing UCA’s that i have (the old versions) and a set of SN95 spindles that i have laying around.

[HotWheelsKid]

Thanks Jeff, Frank and Paul for your responses to my requests for opinions on the Steering setups.

I’ve secured a set of 94-95 spindles (just waiting for them to ship now) and will move forward with the the SAI mod.
I’ll leave the steering rack in its original position, and will use a power rack.
I am also updating the UCAs to the newer FFR design.

Pedal box will also remain Mustang OEM. Jeff has recommended vacuum assist brakes, but i haven’t spent much time figuring that out yet. Next on the list.

Thanks to all!

[HotWheelsKid]

Today was a good day!
I finally started to receive parts for the build.
I got most of the Holley sniper EFI system.
Air gap intake
New Fuel tank
Canton oil pan, gasket and pickup.
Love it.
Sniper ignition box and distributor arrive tomorrow.

[David Hodgkins]

Regarding pedals, I got my Wilwood setup for my MKIII from Moke Forte. He had his own setup and it might fit the spyder better than a MKIV setup from FFR.

I have the older setup on the front end too. Truth is I don’t even think about it when I’m driving.

[HotWheelsKid]

I’ve just sent him a message. I’m hoping to figure that out. I just prefer the Wilwood products vs a donor box.

Regarding pedals, I got my Wilwood setup for my MKIII from Moke Forte. He had his own setup and it might fit the spyder better than a MKIV setup from FFR.

I’m very glad to hear that. Can’t wait to finally get all my parts in and finally start assembling.

I have the older setup on the front end too. Truth is I don’t even think about it when I’m driving.

[Jimtmich]

Looks like a wonderful Christmas Morning!

[HotWheelsKid]

You’re right. More parts today. Parts tomorrow. And just got a fedex notification, 154lbs of parts coming from ffr too! Woohoo!

Looks like a wonderful Christmas Morning!

[HotWheelsKid]

I had ordered these with my mk4 but they will be staying on the spyder. So happy to have finally received them.



They are not 100% match to the sniper but close enough with the distance they’ll be apart from each other.

[Ltngdrvr]

You were trying to match your wheels to the throttle body???

[Blitzboy54]

You were trying to match your wheels to the throttle body???

I respect it.

[HotWheelsKid]

I am super happy to now know mike @ Forte's Parts Connection.

He had the hook-up on a bunch of parts I needed,but I’m most happy about this one!

Wilwood gen1 pedal box with mount.

[HotWheelsKid]

It’ll be the little things …. That kill me …. And my budget.

You were trying to match your wheels to the throttle body???

[HotWheelsKid]

Thanks man. I thoroughly enjoy reading your build thread. So glad you take the time to document it so well.

I respect it.