Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Frank818]

And I'm in!!!

Ok around Oct 2014 (now April 26th!), but if anyone wants to discuss about this uncommon build, I'll be happy to help.

After this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-tranny-viable I have now decided to move on for real.

My plan as of Nov 2013:

- Use my VW engine, ECU and tranny in place of the Subaru drivetrain;
- Buy a wrecked Impreza or an AJW pallet for the other parts (sell the engine/tranny if I get one from AJW);
- Build it, drive it and become immortal so that I can have fun until the end of times.

Expected delivery date:
Oct 11th 2014 (but could be sooner due to production ramp-up, or Hot List! And it is, now scheduled for April 26h 2014)

I'm 37, currently no kids, a perfect timing.

Engine specs:

- Too many details, but it's a 1993 Corrado 2.8L VR6 AAA OBDI cable throttle engine with 104k km (65k miles);
- 12v, 263 cams;
- GT3582R 0.70AR compressor/0.63AR turbine;
- Power is yet unknown, as I have to finish up on the dyno next spring hopefully. All I can say is I use tires 3% higher than OEM, wider (215), heavier wheels, shod with Yokohamas ADVAN Nuevo AD08 (very sticky for a road tire) and yet I manage to make the wheels spin on 3rd gear when I hit full boost around 3300-3400. According to many modified VR6s, when it spins in 3rd it's cuz you most probably cracked 400wtq. It's just a rule of thumb, by no mean scientific;
- EuroSpecSport 6-sp close ratio Rally Short transmission (tall 1st gear). This tranny has an awesome whining noise without being straight cut. 1st: 2.7, 2nd: 1.8, 3rd: 1.45, 4th: 1.15, 5th: .96, 6th: .85 FD: 3.66;
- ECU: DTA S80 Pro full stand alone system.


Garage, when completely naked a couple of years ago (660ft/sq, 2 cars inline (4 if they are Smart Fortwo lolll):

IMG_3228.JPGIMG_3219.JPGIMG_3220.JPG


Engine:

IMAG0249.jpg


Drivetrain donor (license plate is no longer valid):

IMAG0256.jpgIMAG0141.jpg


My racer!

IMAG0529.jpg


My Sport Touring bike (which I use for long rides in the States):

IMAG0477.jpg



I know some people will really appreciate what I'll do here, I know some won't care and I know some will think I am stupid, for whatever reasons. Good for them. I have plans, I have a goal and like fateo66 (Zach) said, it's important to have high goals in order to do as much as possible to try to reach them, live our life, and sometimes reach these goals (Zach did I say that the way you thought of it? loll). I am prepared for this build and I have good people around me to help me go through and make it a success. Of course, the community of this forum will be of significant help to me as well, like it was since the beginning. I just hope I can give it as much in return.


Now, let's roll!

[NicksPapaw]

Another 818 Pioneer! Good for you Frank! We can't wait to see your adventure. Now start tearing that VW down and show us the pics.

[metalmaker12]

I have owned a few Vdubs, I had great success with the 1.8 T with an apr kit in a mkI. Yours is such a good power train, I am just not sure you can make it fit without lots of cutting, are you planning of just getting the frame in bare steel.

[wallace18]

Best of luck to you. It will be interesting to see the build.

[wleehendrick]

I have owned a few Vdubs, I had great success with the 1.8 T with an apr kit in a mkI.

Nice swap! I had a mkII GTI 16V for a looooooong time; pretty much stock drivetrain, with Neuspeed/Bilstein suspuension... loved the car. Remember, the proper way to drive a (watercooled) VW is: two wheels sticking, one wheel sliding, and one wheel in the air!

[metalmaker12]

It was a blast to drive, I managed low 12's with r compounds. a 818 with franks setup, it should be killer, btw I have a garage boner

[Frank818]

are you planning of just getting the frame in bare steel.

You mean not powder coated? Not sure yet, probably powder coated, 400 is not much and if I cut and weld I will use my own spray can to cover, I am not confident the guy I know can powder coat the frame for a reasonable price. But I got months to figure that out and I'll go whichever way costs less.

[Frank818]

a 818 with franks setup, it should be killer

I don't know yet about traction. I think what I'll do is tune the boost in a way to have about 15-20% wheel spin. I have an electronic controller which I use to set predetermined boost based on desired RPM, so that may help and prevent a sudden surge of 18psi. But I have to drive it first and see how it behaves. In 2 years!


Yes wleehendrick, they all tend to go on 3 wheels! But the 818 will not!

[metalmaker12]

I have run the 818 with different maps @7,12,14,16,and 18psi, all were fast, 14 up is insane

[Frank818]

And I have a 2.8L... I'll start with low boost!

[metalmaker12]

And I have a 2.8L... I'll start with low boost!

Yeah, well we all start low lol, but I think we all know were that ends up

[wleehendrick]

Yes wleehendrick, they all tend to go on 3 wheels!

Yup, I used to love freaking out friends driving behind me. Come to a tight corner, do a scandi flick or just an abrupt throttle lift, and then wait for it... "Dude, you were up on three wheels!" Yeah, they're meant to do that.

But the 818 will not!

Of course not, because with headlights from a Camry SE, it'll be "grounded to the ground"!

[D2W]

This will be an awesome build. The VR6 is one of the best sounding engines ever, very exotic.

[Frank818]

Of course not, because with headlights from a Camry SE, it'll be "grounded to the ground"!

Lolll good one

[Frank818]

This will be an awesome build. The VR6 is one of the best sounding engines ever, very exotic.

Tnx man, I'll try to give it up all it deserves!

I really wonder with a 3" very short pipe and one muffler how the sound would be.

[Frank818]

Ok so I found the 2nd donor, the Subaru one. I mean I found the strategy to use.

I'll get a NA Impreza from 2002 to 2004, RUNNING ones with about 120k miles can be found for around CAD$2k (USD$1.9k). 2005+ are 5k+.

I am pretty sure I can sell the engine and tranny with full exhaust for about $1k, so that leaves me with donor parts worth $1k. Which is not much money considering I will use my VR6 engine/tranny and not pay 5-7k to upgrade a WRX engine. And I can, throughout a lot of time, sell all the non-required parts I would be left with after dismantling the donor. So all in all the donor parts would cost me 500-800 bucks.

In fact, just like in the USA, WRX are sold for quite some more around here, far most of the time over 5k. Running ones, that is. Wrecked ones are harder to look into as many needed parts could be damaged and I would need to buy them elsewhere, besides I don't see any difference between WRX and NA for the non-drivetrain parts. So why pay more for that kind of project.

Donor parts solved!

[Frank818]

Looking for wheels. I am opened to many specs, so it's hard to come down to one single choice.

TireRack told me this:

Unfortunately our business is set up using guaranteed fitments by vehicle search. If you have questions about offset, center bore, etc., on any certain wheel you can call us, but you will not see these search options online.

[Xusia]

Hey Frank,

I really think you should check out the XXR wheels. I spent a lot of time researching options (considering available sizes, price, tire fitment, etc.) and they have some really good all options. To be honest, I have no idea how tough they are (i.e. I can't say if they are suitable for racing), but for the price, I'm going to give them a try on the street. Many of their styles come in 17x7 +35 (which is well suited to a 215/40 tire), and 18x8.75 +33 (which is well suited to a 255/35, and maybe larger). Both offsets are well suited good for the 818. They come in several different colors, and Wayne is now a dealer.

In Erik's build thread you pondered the effects of moving the weight forward; thinking increased under steer would be the result. I'd really like to hear from someone who knows, because it seems to me moving weight forward would tend to move toward oversteer.

[Frank818]

Xusia, you are right again. I had the correct images of the 818 tail heading in my head, but I chose the word "understeer" instead of "oversteer". I corrected that on Erik's thread.

So yes I theoretically think it would oversteer a little much and to ponder the effect I believe a slightly wider rear tire would help. That being said, it all depends of the thread width and the tires I look for already have a thread width relatively large for road. Larger than Erik's 265s by a good margin. But section width is a tad smaller, which is good.

As for the wheels, XXRs are on my list, cuz they cost nothing (almost ) and I don't plan on either racing the 818 or jumping it (I don't live in a San Francisco like area lolll), so strength is not my criterion. The reason why I have not signed on XXRs yet is cuz they don't attract my eyes as much as say Rota Torques or Metalmaker's Bremmer Kraft BR10s, not to mention the original looks of these copies (Work Emotion CR KAI/Ultimate and 57Xtremes, which are much pricier).

I agree the XXRs have a vast choice of offsets and widths and I believe they are offered in 9.5 in the rear. They are still on my list.

[Frank818]

Ok after looking around for wheels on my lunch time (unlike Mechie who CNC machines during lunch time and probably machined himself a set of custom wheels ) I have set on something that I can find at RacingLabs.com.

Rota Torque Flat Black (or close to black, not sure which color yet) in these sizes:

FRONT: 17x7.5, +48 offset, 56.1 hub with 215/40/17 Section width of 8.6" and Overall diam of 23.7".
REAR: 18x9.5, +35 offset, 73.1 hub with 73.1 > 56.1 flat hub centric rings with 265/35/18 Section width of 10.6" and Overall diam of 25.4" (narrower tires than Erik's, but 0.1in taller).

I know the rears are extreme, but Erik fitted 9.5 +45mm using 10mm spacers (which makes the wheel a false +35mm), his tire is larger in section width and he said it fits great and would do it again. So I believe my choice would fit as well. I could still get 255s if I need to, they fit on 9.5".

Any thoughts?

[Xusia]

If you are buying rear trailing arms, might as well buy Wayne's to ensure no rubbing and widest tire possible.

[Frank818]

Absolutely, I have added on my list yesterday. The bigger the more expensive it gets.

Tnx for following up on my thread Xusia, you've been there since the beginning from the other VAG VR6 analysis thread.

[Mechie3]

Ok after looking around for wheels on my lunch time (unlike Mechie who CNC machines during lunch time and probably machined himself a set of custom wheels )

I know the rears are extreme, but Erik fitted 9.5 +45mm using 10mm spacers (which makes the wheel a false +35mm), his tire is larger in section width and he said it fits great and would do it again.

Any thoughts?

:lol: I bought a set of XXR 530's in gold. Our machine here is limited to 22x16.

Check my thread. I previously fit an 18x9.5 in the rear using 1/2" spacer (~12mm). I hadn't set the alignment at all and it wasn't at ride height (no tire, just a wheel) but it just cleared. The spring was the closest thing. to touching.

[Frank818]

Yes I'll re-read that, I gotta check what wheel offset you used and then calculate the real offset (wheel offset-12mm in your case). 18x9.5? I thought they only made 18x9.75 as the closest to 9.5.

I checked the last 5 pages of your build, couldn't find the pix or mention of rear wheels test fit.

The 530s 18x9.75 are 20mm offset, no?

Oh maybe you are not talking of test fitting the 530s but instead other rear wheels in 18x9.5?

[Mechie3]

That was a test fit of my 18x9.5 Forgestar F14's. I sold them as I found they don't make a front wheel that fits the 818.

Also...my bad. I made a separate wheel thread. They were +48.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...p?12122-18x9-5

[Frank818]

Oh! Yes I remember that thread. Completely forgot about it, or made me commit my mind on 18x9.5.

Yes I believe less camber would be a possibility or living with 1/4". To respect laws here I need 5mm. My tires are mostly square on the sidewall, but they are a tiddy wider than the rim. It's gonna be a tight fit!!! Worst case I use a small spacer and if they protrude outside the fender, I'll dig into fiberglass mods, my mech knows someone. Of course more costs, but that is my decision for going with 9.5 and 265s. Nothing to do with the VR6 swap.

[Frank818]

Who's with me for a drift in Oregon, USA, in our 818s?

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/i...ever-2013-11-4


Couple of updates on the run in the next few weeks, I'll post pix of parts.

[wleehendrick]

saw that on jalopnik yesterday!

[Xusia]

I'm 99% certain that's Maryhill Loops road. It's infamous in the sportbike community. I'd love to see all of you in Oregon, but if you do come, we'll have to drive a different road, because Maryhill Loops is private and they only let people on it for special occasions. NOT TO WORRY! There are plenty of other very good roads in Oregon (and I know most of them!).

Some more videos of that road:
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ill+loops&sm=3

[Frank818]

Definitely looks the same to me. And judging by all those special videos, looks about right when you say "for special occasions".
You seem to have such a great driving place. I am jealous for the least.

Now if I ever drive across East coast to Oregon, I really need a soft top. lolll

[metalmaker12]

To bad a mid engine car will not drift like that without even more practice.

[wleehendrick]

To bad a mid engine car will not drift like that without even more practice.

I was going to say that... Front Engine RWD are great to drift.... the low moment of inertia of a mid-engine that gives it great turn-in response means holding it on the edge of a drift is difficult to near impossible!

[Frank818]

Good thing for street/race driving, though.

[Frank818]

Got my first parts today!

2013-12-10 17.42.38.jpg

Front kit:

0.81" Thick x 12.00" O.D. Rotors
Dynapro 4 Calipers - Black
Caliper Mounting Brackets
BP-10 Smart Compound Brake Pads
Brake Hats
All Hardware necessary to install the complete braking system on both front wheels

Rear kit:

0.81" Thick x 12.19" O.D. Rotors
Dynapro 4 Calipers - Black
Caliper Mounting Brackets
BP-10 Smart Compound Brake Pads
Brake Hats
All Hardware necessary to install the complete braking system on both rear wheels

Black yes, red ones were 200 bucks more, so I kept black and I am planing on a blue/black car, didn't want to attract too much attention just on some red calipers. I may paint them blue if I want, we'll see.
Not drilled yes, slotted just to let the gases escape is enough.

Those discs are really small, I mean the braking surface. My VW discs are much bigger and are only 12.3" compared with 12"-12.2" on these. I guess the calipers bite a lot more so they increased rotor strength using better metal and didn't need that much surface. I dunno...

[Frank818]

Ok right now I am looking into paint wrap. Or film, actually.

Kalstar has become a dealer of http://www.ultimatepremiumplus.com/, made by Arlon.

http://www.arlon.com/Utilities-Produ...869&SelLevel=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8tyMWrwnpk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi_bcw2GXp0

But I also found www.alsacorp.com, with many choices. I love the chrome blue in there. Here's a nice Lambo in that (actually I think it's another brand, but it's damn close).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypLUq6h718o
http://alsacorp.com/strechchrome/sof...ilm/index.html

About 2.8k bucks for the 818 if using Alsa Corp, assuming 35ft length roll (by 5ft).

Then there are:

Avery Graphics http://graphics.averydennison.com/en...cle-wraps.html
3M Scotchprint Wrap Film http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...ts/Series1080/
Oracal http://www.orafol.com/gp/americas/en...-wrapping-cast

The last 3 are in the range of 400 bucks for 5ftx35ft rolls (compact car). I have asked for a roadster if I can shed off 5ft and save 60-80 bucks.

One info worries me a little bit though, they all say the wraps last from 3 to 12 years (depends on brand, color, horizontal vs vertical installation, etc.). So what, after 5 years I have to remove the wrap, buy a new roll and restart the installation? Some say it's easily removable up to 5 years, then what after 5 years it's going to leave stuff on the panels or will be very hard to remove? I failed to find answers yet on that.


I am spending a lot of time trying to get the blue color I am looking for. The characteristics of all these products seem to be fairly the same, which means to me that this market looks well blended with similar offers. So the price/rebates or color will most probably tell me which one I will choose.


EDIT: For more info refer to http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...332#post130332

[Frank818]

Ok my previous post aims to identify many different brands of wrapping film. My goal is that if anyone else plans on wrapping his 818, he can check this post (#35) and make a wise decision to his best interests. I will continue updating it if I find interesting information to share.

[Xusia]

Hey Frank, why not make a separate thread for this?

[Frank818]

Sure I did think about it. You think it's worth it?

[metalmaker12]

I will be wrapping parts, but painting most

[Frank818]

Hey Frank, why not make a separate thread for this?

Done, man. Anything for you, Xusia.