Ssssly 818 buildup thread

[Frank818]

Brooker, I am already happy with my kit, but I envy you a lot to accept such an offer! Cuz you will accept.

[GUNS]

Wow, I'm impressed FFR.

[Mechie3]

If he doesn't want to fly out you can fly me out and we can hang out and talk shop for a day.

[Hindsight]

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

WOW, incredible response.

[Mechie3]

For others reading this, for deburring straight or concave edges I love using this tool:

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...31IaAl328P8HAQ

My thin aluminum needed nothing but thicker pieces will likely need some. That tool made quick work of it.

[metalmaker12]

Go Dave!!!!!!!!!!

[thall818]

I have been following this thread closely and am shocked at FFRs response. Of course, in a positive way. I have always admired the company and now I have confirmation. I received kit #200 earlier this year. I received all of my parts in the 2 months or so following and have no backorders. My panels are not perfect, but are much nicer than yours. My thick aluminum requires light deburring. My thin aluminum is perfect. I have been following the forum for a year now and can honestly say that the kit has met, and often exceeded, my expectations and FFR has been nothing short of a pleasure to work with.

This is my first kit car after almost 30 years of restoration work and I can honestly say that this is the most fun I've had in a long time.

[AZPete]

I'm impressed by Dave's response, but not surprised.
I've been a Factory Five customer for 7 years.

[Presto51]

I've read this entire thread and would like to offer my solution. First of all thank you for your service to our country and for your business. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and all I can say is that this post is not an accurate reflection of our product or company. The laser cut aluminum pieces that we provide with the kits are exceptional. The ones shown should not look like that and we're happy to replace them. Same goes for the fiberglass and powder-coating. They do not all look like that no way. To say that all of them are junk is emotional and not true. This post makes the kits we sell look like garbage and that is not the case. The 818 is exceptional in so many ways and I want to personally get to the bottom of every single one of these pictures and claims. I could replace parts but I suspect there is something more at work here and I want to solve this problem fully.

My solution is simple.

I will immediately refund your entire purchase price and arrange for a transport company to pick up your kit as quickly as possible (days not weeks). I want it unmolested and exactly as you have it there to be delivered to my dock for my personal inspection and report.

I am offering to fly you out to Factory Five at my expense, pay for a hotel and rental car, at any time of your choosing to allow you to tour the plant, inspect the welding department, molding department, chassis assembly and packaging areas. At that time you may personally select from a line of four or five completed 818 kits, all identical and all ready for shipment. You can inspect the frame, body panels, aluminum, packaging and parts of the kit you select. I will then ship that exact kit to you, at my expense, as quickly as possible so that you have exactly what you want (you will have to pay for the kit). IF the kit and what we sell does not meet your expectations, then you have your full refund and will not waste any further time.

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

Prediction. You will be our best customer and you will build an exceptional 818 and you will know, like almost every person we've ever built a car for, that ours is a company of exceptional people and products.

WOW!! Now that's a deal to take.

Really looking forward to Dave's findings after he inspects this kit

Ron

[Brando]

I knew there was a reason I admired Dave
Ssssly are you just speechless or have you not caught up on your thread today?

[ssssly]

In addition to the offer he posted in this thread, Dave Smith also sent me an email with his personal cell number.

I tried to give him a call, but it was a little after 6:00PM East Coast time.

I sent him an email with my contact info and will try again tomorrow at a more respectable hour to get in touch with him.

My sole concern with his offer is that I don't want to cherry pick a kit. I would never feel right selecting kit components, knowing that the parts I didn't select, because they weren't as good, would be shipped to someone else.

Either way, I look forward to talking to Mr. Smith.

[Frank818]

My sole concern with his offer is that I don't want to cherry pick a kit. I would never feel right selecting kit components, knowing that the parts I didn't select, because they weren't as good, would be shipped to someone else.

I don't see it that way. Either way you or someone will get these kits at the factory, so you have the choice of picking one YOU like or you choose none and you get one Dave will ship to you. They are the same kits, someone will get them, it doesn't mean it's not as good. All kits are not made exactly the same, if FFR makes 100 kits and all of them pass a thorough QC (let's forget the one exception you just got, cuz it really is an exception), some will have passed just ok, some will have passed with a higher score. 100 people will get these kits at random. All of which are within FFR's specs.

Now you have the opportunity to choose which one from those who passed the QC you want to get. And you have that one-time opportunity cuz you received a very bad kit and Dave feels very bad about it cuz it's not what FFR does at the factory. He doesn't want customers to receive kits like yours. You had troubles and Dave wants to pay you something in return. It's not unfair for the others, you deserve it!

Take me for example, one of my part didn't look good at all when I picked up the kit, but was still in my kit. I didn't see it, I never asked for anything, but I was asked to choose another copy of the part from a stack cuz the nice guy at FFR said he didn't like the quality and didn't want me or anyone else to have that part. We saved a lot of hassles working that way and I found that I deserved what he offered.

[svanlare]

Feeling bad for your pain, but happy to see how FF has stepped up. All companies have issues, how they deal with the problems separates the great ones from the rest. Good luck and I hope for good news in the future and look forward to watching your build.

[Junty]

As others have mentioned, I am so very impressed by the FFR response. I received my 818 a little over a month ago (all the way south) in Aotearoa (New Zealand), and although there are a few rough edges, Im very impressed by the quality and ease of build. Thank you FFR for providing a wonderful design at an affordable price which allows for infinite customisation and personalisation. A1+

[ssssly]

Spoke on the phone with Dave Smith today, after we straightened out our time zones.

Going to try to figure out schedules and take him up on his offer to come out for a tour.

More importantly to me, he seemed genuine in the fact that he wants to get to the bottom of why the defective parts were defective in the first place and why they were shipped.

He stated that he was confident that after seeing the operations out there, that I would be one of their biggest fans. And nothing would make me happier than to prove him right.

On a side note, that does look like a pretty nice deburring tool. I might pick one up. And my thick aluminum is looks fine. Was just the thin stuff that is slagged and burnt up.

Also looked at the frame under my HID dive light. And my speculation about the bubbling, and likely the peeling, is outgassing at the heat boundaries from the welds. The bubbles seem to be the thickest in concentric circles as you would see from welding heat. So it may be as simple as turning the heat up when preheating the frames for powder coat. Or preheating them if they aren't doing that already. Being that the frames are tube steel, even if they were sandblasted after they were welded, imperfections can outgas at the heat boundaries if not preheated hot enough.

I would have to sand the powder coat off to be certain. But I told Mr. Smith I would return the frame to him untouched so that he could inspect it. So it will have to wait till then.

On a couple of other side notes this makes for a great shop light. 54WT5HO, comes with bulbs, is daisy chainable, comes prewired with a 3 prong plug, and is about half the price you would pay for an identically spec'd "shop light" with bulbs at HD or the like. Only difference is because it is a "grow light" it comes with 65K vs 41K bulbs. But you would never know what the K was if nobody told you.

Ordered one of these as well. Plugged into my garage door opener. And then the light is plugged into it. So now I have 20,000 lumens of remote controlled garage lighting.

Also ordered one of these for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

[Brando]

Is it odd I wish my kit was messed up? I want to kick it a bit with dave.... pick out my kit. Ssssly if things actually do happen for a reason be sure to embrace this one

[FFRSpec72]

Also ordered one of these for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

I have used this tool before, like the rest it will still strip the rivnut and does not work well on thin surface, its just a little better than some of the hand rivnut hand tools, I have given up on rivnuts and using nut plates where possible

[Boog]

Also ordered one of these for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

Where did you order it from? I haven't found a supplier for the US.

[ssssly]

Ebay UK

[tango68ss]

TTT.. Any updates on this situation?

[Erik W. Treves]

Wayne, I think you and Erik get different discussions and support than the rest of us based your ongoing relationships and on my discussions with other early builders. Frustrations run high and we all work through it.

I get the same support you all get...or should I say I get the same support as I did when I bought my Mark I Roadster...the back order list was HUGE, the body was not great at all...using the stock throttle pedal without removing the clutch interlock switch caused my throttle to stick WOT, the THIN plate the pedal was attached to bent! I just knew and know what I was getting into and set my expectations where I thought I needed to. Having said that, IF, I ever get to a point where I think there is an "issue" FFR has always stepped up!! That's why I am on my 5th kit from them!!!! Plain and simple for me...you could look at a picture of the 818 and go buy some metal and try and create a 818 from scratch....I did that for my LOCOST 7...and that took forever and way more frustrating..at 10K for the kit you are much better off. Is it perfect...for me it was..I was painting anyway...I had a lot of issues with the body - but worked through them...just keeping the end goal in mind puts my frustration in check. As far as the open house car goes...I spoke with Tony...that's all he did! He buffed it out and used some white touchup paint on the "spots". ---- If you think I get special treatment....I paid FULL PRICE for my 818 and happily helped make well over 100 changes and improvements to the kit..not to mention the amount of redo and refit Wayne and I had to do. ... it's all part of the Journey.



THe pics in this thread look about what mine did and I had several, ok, a lot, of air pockets which had to be addressed....still better than I could have done...I would be more frustrated if I had been expecting a white car and got a red one. I could go on but don't want to high jack the thread. Only went this far cause I was mentioned by name....make no mistake...there is no "special" support here. We are all family and Dave and the FFR team treats us all the same (provided we don't burn any individual bridges along the way.) We all have those cousins, brothers, aunts who nobody wants to talk to

Work through it! Dave will and always makes it right...you have a TON of stuff you can do in the mean time....go have some fun!!!!

[metalmaker12]

No special treatment here either and I kind of have an insider connection. My kit had more voids than any I have seen to date, I fixed them all, did all my body work etc etc. In fact my engine troubles kind of are related to a design flaw ( lack of proper ic airflow) and my my own inability to monitor high iats, but I don't go blam anyone, I pick up the pieces and keep trucking,making improvements and relaying my info to FFR to help the community. Building a car is never perfect, but it is so much better than buying one!! Sorry, I had to vent.

I hope all is fixed and you get you kit the way you would like, but it's a piece of clay you must mold.

[RM1SepEx]

I get the same support you all get...or should I say I get the same support as I did when I bought my Mark I Roadster...the back order list was HUGE, the body was not great at all...using the stock throttle pedal without removing the clutch interlock switch caused my throttle to stick WOT, the THIN plate the pedal was attached to bent! I just knew and know what I was getting into and set my expectations where I thought I needed to. Having said that, IF, I ever get to a point where I think there is an "issue" FFR has always stepped up!! That's why I am on my 5th kit from them!!!! Plain and simple for me...you could look at a picture of the 818 and go buy some metal and try and create a 818 from scratch....I did that for my LOCOST 7...and that took forever and way more frustrating..at 10K for the kit you are much better off. Is it perfect...for me it was..I was painting anyway...I had a lot of issues with the body - but worked through them...just keeping the end goal in mind puts my frustration in check. As far as the open house car goes...I spoke with Tony...that's all he did! He buffed it out and used some white touchup paint on the "spots". ---- If you think I get special treatment....I paid FULL PRICE for my 818 and happily helped make well over 100 changes and improvements to the kit..not to mention the amount of redo and refit Wayne and I had to do. ... it's all part of the Journey.



THe pics in this thread look about what mine did and I had several, ok, a lot, of air pockets which had to be addressed....still better than I could have done...I would be more frustrated if I had been expecting a white car and got a red one. I could go on but don't want to high jack the thread. Only went this far cause I was mentioned by name....make no mistake...there is no "special" support here. We are all family and Dave and the FFR team treats us all the same (provided we don't burn any individual bridges along the way.) We all have those cousins, brothers, aunts who nobody wants to talk to

Work through it! Dave will and always makes it right...you have a TON of stuff you can do in the mean time....go have some fun!!!!

Don't really want to muck up Brandon's thread. I've emailed and PMed Dave... crickets... I get Tony Z and Joe S

FFR works based on relationships, new builder's don't have one and we end up talking to people that can't resolve our issues to our satisfaction. Like Brandon I paid for powder coating, it is DEFECTIVE I have 3 areas that have come off like the photo by my shifter

and 8 -10 brackets that look like the photo

P1120147.JPG P1120151.JPG

BOTH are problems due to poor prep, the powder isn't adhering to the surface. I was given a pint of POR15 and a can of black paint to fix it myself

My body problems are well documented in my thread. I attended the open house where we were shown a white body that Tony spent "a couple hrs buffing it out" my body has terrible underfilled corners, big voids and the hood came with a broken tip (shoved into a cardboard tube to protect it) I was given two small containers and catalyst for repairing my gel coat.

I understand now that our expectations were too high, the problem is Dave Smith is the person that set them this high. I feel as if I bent over backwards to work with FFR on these issues. As Brandon stated how are we supposed to feel when he gets real customer service and we feel as if we have been ignored?

[Dave Smith]

Dan, I was under the assumption that you were well taken care of. We found some bad powdercoating and dealt with these individually, but they were an extreme minority and 99 percent of FFR powdercoated chassis are great. I was told that you were the one who asked for the POR and that Tony went out and bought what you asked for.

I am dealing with Brooker personally and if ANYONE has ANY issue at all with your product that has not been resolved, please call me directly. I have instructed the staff to direct any and all reports/calls to me. I’ll report on Brookers case after Ive met with him, seen the parts and provided a solution and report to you.

[David Hodgkins]

Folks,

So as to not muck up this thread until ssssly and FFR get a chance to work on this issue I'm temporarily closing this thread.

ssssly or Dave Smith: Please let one of the admins know when an appropriate conclusion has been reached so that a followup can be posted here.

Thanks all for your understanding and support of both ssssly and FFR.

[David Hodgkins]

I'm sincerely hoping that this thread can now re-commence in a positive vein.

Re-opening...

[Frank818]

Yes! Let's see what the updates are!

[Rasmus]

ssssly sells seashells by the sea shore.

[Mechie3]

ssssly sells seashells by the sea shore.

SRSLY?

I've been wondering as well the outcome of the trip. Hope it went well and you enjoyed the tour.

[JSP49]

I'm really disappointed to hear and see this. It's given me a queer feeling in the pit of my stomach. I've been saving for months for a kit and donor parts. I even cut out beer during the week to bring my dream experience home sooner. I've endured the stress fending off discouraging comments the whole time from family about how crazy this project seems to them. I'm struggling to reconcile all those videos and still shots of Dave and the rest of the FFR team showing immaculate bodies and builds and hearing about their ultra technology in producing all the parts with what I just saw and read. I would appreciate comments from others on their experience regarding this issue.

[STiPWRD]

I'm really disappointed to hear and see this. It's given me a queer feeling in the pit of my stomach. I've been saving for months for a kit and donor parts. I even cut out beer during the week to bring my dream experience home sooner. I've endured the stress fending off discouraging comments the whole time from family about how crazy this project seems to them. I'm struggling to reconcile all those videos and still shots of Dave and the rest of the FFR team showing immaculate bodies and builds and hearing about their ultra technology in producing all the parts with what I just saw and read. I would appreciate comments from others on their experience regarding this issue.

Keep saving, the experience of building a kit car it well worth it. Don't let a few imperfections in the body work hold you back. My body panels aren't perfect but in general much better than what's depicted in this thread. And if there are any issues FFR has shown they will go above and beyond to do the right thing and fix any problems. They've been great to work with overall. You will run into challenges from time to time and learn more than you ever thought, that's all part of the fun.

[Mechie3]

I wouldn't be so discouraged as to not buy the kit. Rather, go into it knowing the body requires more than just a light buffing to look good. Overall it's still a pretty good kit, just not as bolt together as originally thought by many of us. Those with later kits are showing improvements vs the original kits that shipped.

Given the opportunity, I would buy the kit again, I would just adjust my expectations and set my budget a little higher.

[Quiny]

Keep saving, the experience of building a kit car it well worth it. Don't let a few imperfections in the body work hold you back. My body panels aren't perfect but in general much better than what's depicted in this thread. And if there are any issues FFR has shown they will go above and beyond to do the right thing and fix any problems. They've been great to work with overall. You will run into challenges from time to time and learn more than you ever thought, that's all part of the fun.

Ditto, I have nothing but a good experience with FFR. If you are looking for a show quality car out of the box than don't buy one, If instead you want a great platform and starting point to build something that is completely your own, than an FFR kit is what you want. I had to promise my wife that this project would not effect our finances. I worked on the side and sold a whole bunch of stuff(other toys) to afford the kit and I do not regret it one bit. I have an earlier white body and although it's not perfect it's plenty good enough to drive for a year and save for a paint job. Considering the cars that an 818 can compete with, it's a bargain.

[ssssly]

Well, went out to FFR last weekend.

FFR is shipping me a new un-powdercoated frame, body panels and aluminum.

The powder coating doesn't meet my requirements. The welding spatter is not removed from the frames and the frames are not outgassed prior to powder coat. To me it was, too high of a possibility of getting another bubbled frame that would flake, so I elected to skip the powder and do the frame myself.

The solution to this issue is to wire wheel the heated carbon off the frames after welding and then outgassing the frames prior to etching and powder coating . Would add about $150-$250 of work per powder coated frame. If it were me, I would do it. I think at the price point that customers would pay the extra $150. And would save on a lot of bad PR and refunds for flaking powder coat. Dave Smith doesn't think the flaking is prevalent enough to address it.

To some I would say the PC is worth it to others not. They are welded, etched and coated. Will it cost you more than $400 to do the exact same process. Almost definitely. Will that process, vice: cleaning, gassing, flashing, etching, coating meet your needs. Don't know. That's up to you. But now you know what you are getting to make that decision.

All the 818 body panels I saw there looked considerably better than mine. They still didn't look like what I would consider "no paint". But they did look like something I can live with. IE, they had corners. The biggest issue I see here is expectation management. The most prevalent tag line on this car is "paint free body". While certainly every person who has bought an 818 is not on this forum and I doubt I have read every thread, I have not read a single thread about the body where a customer thought the body was "paint free". The best customer descriptions I have seen can be summed up with "its a kit car, what did you expect" and/or "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted". And the quality of the body panels I expect to receive with the new body being shipped to me is, "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted" not "paint free body".

And without coming up with a new process for the body panels, "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted" is pretty much the best one can expect. Hand laying complex shapes like the 818 body panels is always going to be problematic. There is just so much you can do with shape cut pieces of fiberglass mat and a paint brush full of resin.

If they were able to get the plastic molding up and running, those could probably have been "no paint".

Hand finishing all the pieces? Also not cheap labor wise. By the time you were done filling all the voids from the hand molding and multiple coats of gel, looking around double the price from what the body panels are now.

Vacuum molding them, could go a long way to the goal. Probably about $1000 more per kit. The corners and complex shapes would be hard set and would be easier to gel.

Or oversizing the molds and using extra glass and resin in the tight corners and complex shapes. Then cutting them to shape with the 5 axis CNC router they have on premiss. I would guess, about 4 hrs of CNC time more a kit. Don't know the work flow and tooling for that exact CNC but I would guess it about $100 an hour. This would also probably get the body panels very close to "no paint".

Again, if it were me. I would do something. Dave is adamant about the price point and doing stuff in-house with local material. I fully support the latter. I however don't know how he could hit the price point and actually produce a "no paint body". And that price point certainly isn't being hit on the customer end. The best bodies will still need to be filled and painted at some point. So the customer is not getting "paint free" at $10k. They are getting a hell of a lot of car for $10k. But they are going to have to spend $3-5k in body work.

So to me, paying $2k more in vacuum molding or cnc body work for my kit (to get as close to "paint free" as anyone is ever going to get, would have saved me ~$3k in body work. And I think that is math that anyone buying one of these kits would accept. I certainly would have. Getting something sanded and sprayed is way cheaper than stripping and filling an entire fiberglass body.

All the aluminum I saw there looked good. Not expecting any issues there.

Additionally, the FFR facility is pretty bad *** and the folks that work there are pretty bad *** as well.

So if you actually read all that you are probably still wondering where I am at with the whole thing. Because it's not glaring support or condemnation.

So here is where I am at. I don't like complaining about things without being offering solutions. I find it to be an obnoxious trait.

I like Dave's company. I like the 818.

I identified problems, cleared some stuff up, offered some alternatives.

Bottom line, I would buy another car from FFR. Hopefully by then either the processes matched the advertising. If not, I would point out the flaws as I saw them again and try to offer more solutions. The issue isn't that it is a bad car, its that it has been sold on the vision of what the car was desired to be, not what it is.

More telling than any of that though, if Dave was looking to hire Sigma 6 work flow management after I retire from the Air Force, I would apply for the job.

[Frank818]

All true!

In the end, I'm happy you could find an agreement that would let you continue with FFR. Welcome back.

[RM1SepEx]

Thanks for the summary Brooker. I visited FFR as well and worked out my kit "issues" with Dave. I couldn't agree with you more Brooker. Details of my trip in my thread.

[AZPete]

aaah, Thank You, Dave?.

[longislandwrx]

its that it has been sold on the vision of what the car was desired to be, not what it is.

well spoken.

[ssssly]

aaah, Thank You, Dave?.

Absolutely a thank you to Dave.

I thanked him in person.

And thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

On another note, got a call from my Stewert Transport driver, and my new frame and body should be here next Thursday.

[Mitch Wright]

Got my 818R in August with the red gel coat body, it looks really good. It meets my expectation as not needing paint.