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As a result of doing track days this year, as opposes to autocross last year, we are going at higher speeds.
The car was nervous at high speeds and has some snap oversteer.
Changes this time:
600 to 500 rear springs.
2.5 to 4.5 degrees castor.
-0.5 to -2.0 camber front plus 1 degree per inch of travel camber gain.
-0.5 to -2.5 camber rear. ( never measured the camber gain in the rear)
Added BEAR bump steer kit.
The included washers with the kit were not enough. I had to add a couple of washers for a total of 0.952 spacers.
I also added a safety washer to the bottom.
We will be testing tomorrow at Grissom AFB.
Bob
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-04-2016 at 06:00 PM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
I think those changes should help a lot. Good luck tomorrow and report back!
What is your rear toe set to? That can cause a lot of issues too.
Tamra
Building 818SR #297 picked up 10/25/14 with Andrew (xxguitarist)
First start 12/21/14, First "drive" 1/17/15
First Dyno at EFI Logics 3/7/15- 310whp at 15psi for break in, full spool by ~3500rpm!
First autocross 3/29/15
1st Registered 818 in Connecticut 7/24/2015. 9 months - 1 day from kit pickup!
front is 1/8" out and rear is 3/16" in.
I suspect our big problem was bump steer. We were going from 1/8"out to 1.5" in during 2" bump.
So during a left turn, the car would roll right causing the front right to dig in and throw the back end around.
That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Bob
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Bob, I will bet the car will be MUCH happier, have fun tomorrow.
Good luck and let us know.
I just noticed the aftermarket wheel speed sensor you have there... what's that for?
Speedometer. We are using a 2012 transmission that doesn't have one. 5 pulse per rev on 24" tire is perfect.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post236077
Bob
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-04-2016 at 07:29 PM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
I think I'd try either 0 toe in for the front or else up to 1\8" toe in. Toe out is very twitchy. Suit yourself.
Sounds like you are on the right track, Bob! Rear toe in of 3/16" is good. I bet your issue is bump steer like you are thinking, so hopefully that fixes it. We run toe out up front too since it sharpens up the front responsiveness, but too much can make it twitchy like Lance said.
Tamra
Building 818SR #297 picked up 10/25/14 with Andrew (xxguitarist)
First start 12/21/14, First "drive" 1/17/15
First Dyno at EFI Logics 3/7/15- 310whp at 15psi for break in, full spool by ~3500rpm!
First autocross 3/29/15
1st Registered 818 in Connecticut 7/24/2015. 9 months - 1 day from kit pickup!
Our big swing at suspension change ended up being a foul ball.
Biggest problem was the large camber changes caused the tire to run on inside edges.
Braking sucked as front tires were only using 2/3rds of tire.
Oversteer was difficult to control. Overall we were not happy with this setup.
Michael and I a both hurting and sore tonight. The car was beating us up.
We tried to use gopro mounts on an galaxy S7. Another fail. The heavier S7 was vibrating all over the place. Also the camera position was bad as the it need to be about 6" lower.
Bob
https://youtu.be/hEzZTINaKWg
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Large camber changes cannot be escaped with short a arms.
Hey Bob,
Did you happen to mark the tires to see where they are rolling over to (to see how much of the tire you are using in turns)? The camber up front will definitely hurt braking grip. However, in corners, you should be going from using 2/3'ds of a tire to 100% if your camber is correct, which should result in maximum grip. We are running -3.5 in the rear I believe, and found that we were wearing the tires evenly at autocross. A bigger handling difference for us came from adjusting rake - we lowered the rear ride height a touch and the car became much more manageable. When you replaced the springs, could you have changed the rear ride height by any chance?
Did you happen to keep an eye on tire pressures? Some cars are very sensitive to tire pressure changes. I know in a track session you can't check/adjust them as frequently like in autocross, but it may be a good thing to keep an eye on in case you need to adjust your starting pressures/ pressure bias. Sometimes even 1 or 2 psi can make a big difference. Maybe some other track day guys have more feedback.
Tamra
Building 818SR #297 picked up 10/25/14 with Andrew (xxguitarist)
First start 12/21/14, First "drive" 1/17/15
First Dyno at EFI Logics 3/7/15- 310whp at 15psi for break in, full spool by ~3500rpm!
First autocross 3/29/15
1st Registered 818 in Connecticut 7/24/2015. 9 months - 1 day from kit pickup!
Hi Tamra,
We just went too big on our camber changes. Our tire wear was perfect before on the set up we were running for the last 6 months. Took a set of R888 down to slicks with no cord showing.
We did not have our tires chalked at the beginning of the day. But I did have the tires clean. We were 1" to 1.5" from the arrows.
Our static camber setting will be less than most because we have other changes that increased our camber gain and have less body roll.
After changing springs we did set our ride height back to 4.5 with 600 lbs payload in the car.
Our tire pressures started at 18f/19r. With a 2 person car and a small crowd. There wasn't any time to do much between runs. Feeling our tires between runs, they were maybe 120F. Our tire recommended temperature is 180f.
New plan is to stay with the new Caster and bump steer setting an drop the camber setting to 1.0f and 1.0R and try again next weekend somewhere.
Then a week from today we will do a track night at Putnam.
http://www.tracknightinamerica.com/e...ndiana-june-13
Bob
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-06-2016 at 11:19 AM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
If your suspension geometry changes made it so you have increased camber gain, then I think you're right and reducing your camber would be a good idea.
Have you calculated how much more camber gain you have now relative to the stock setup? For example, with us running -3.5 static in the rear with the same spring rate as you, do our car's camber curves cross each other at some point through travel (ie do you end up with more negative camber during max normal compression than we do, despite us starting with more)?
Tamra
Building 818SR #297 picked up 10/25/14 with Andrew (xxguitarist)
First start 12/21/14, First "drive" 1/17/15
First Dyno at EFI Logics 3/7/15- 310whp at 15psi for break in, full spool by ~3500rpm!
First autocross 3/29/15
1st Registered 818 in Connecticut 7/24/2015. 9 months - 1 day from kit pickup!
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-06-2016 at 05:29 PM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
This is my estimated miles on our 818.
Street/Road miles: 3000 Mostly drives through country and Michaels to/from high school.
Autocross Miles: 300 miles on 500 runs. Very hard miles, Full gas -- full brake-- 1.2 G turns repeat about 25 times per one minute run.
Track Miles: 800 miles, 4 track days with 3 hours on track each day. About 40-80 in turns and 80-120 on straights.
Trailer miles: about 3000 to and from autocross and track events.
Cost: 2.5 years spending a lot of time with my son: PRICELESS
Talking about trailer miles. This was our tow vehicle for the last few years:
P1040455c.jpg
Time to add a second TOW vehicle. 2005 High mileage Suburban Z71 4WD (250K)
suburanc.jpg
Loaded up heading to another track day at Putnam Park Raceway tomorrow. Over by Mechie3's house.
Michael is already telling me that the Suburban is his.
Bob
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-13-2016 at 12:23 AM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
That's an awesome tow vehicle Bob. I have no tow vehicle so am going to be very nervous when taking my 818 to the drag strip and road race courses. I could always rent a uhaul pickup and car trailer but that can get expensive.
Bob, How did the car work at Putnam Park with the revised set up?
"Track night in America" is tonight. I let you know tomorrow.
Her is what we are testing:
cold tire Pressure: 18F/19R
front springs: 350
front ride height: 5"
front caster: 4.5 deg
front camber @ RH: -1.0 deg
bump steer : 0"
front toe : 0
rear springs: 500
rear ride height 5"
rear roll steer 0
rear camber @ RH -1.5 deg
rear toe: 3/16 in
Bob
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Sounds like that setup should work real well. Good luck!
Have a blast, should be more comfortable for sure,
Today we went to a SCCA Track night at Putnam park.
Finally we got our handling issues under control.
With no aero, our 818 was very balances, braking was good, tire wear looked even.
Very happy with the results today.
P1050897s.jpg P1050898s.jpg
Also, this was our first track event with the temperature around 90. Our fans didn't com on until we were off track for a few minutes. So our nose mounted radiator is working out.
We did have some issue with our data logger and videos. In this video the movie is not synced with the g force, GPS and speed data.
We are in the novice group which is passing with "point by" only in the designated zones.
Michael only gave one point by in over an hour on track. That was only to get to a place on the track with no traffic so he could open it up.
https://youtu.be/qyTCXsdPObE
Bob
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Awesome Bob! So cool to watch him reel in and pass cars that cost several times as much as the 818.
Great news congrats, I can tell by Michaels hands the car is much better.
Looks like we lost our gas cap.
Is FFR still replacing these.
P1050899s.jpg
I might use that hole for the dipstick.
Bob
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-14-2016 at 09:07 PM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Good job Michael & Bob! Fun track isn't it I've run Putnam several times and would liked to have joined you for Track Night in America but alas the organizers do not approve of the FFR roadster's roll bars...
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Yes, it is a fun track.
We are scheduled to do a 2 day Track Day there on June 25-26 with 10/10th Motorsports. So I'm not going to make it to the London Cobra show to see you get your award. Congratulations.
We put a bigger roll bar on our 818S for our own safety. Track Night in America wasn't enforcing roll bar rules as you can tell by the S2000 that was in front of us in grid.
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-15-2016 at 10:45 AM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 06-15-2016 at 02:58 PM.
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
I like the concept and would like to see it applied to custom parts. As far as the specs go, "and blazingly fast (zero to 60 in 2.5 seconds)."
Actually Bob TNIA says that is OK---guess they figure that the S2K or Miata windshield frames will keep the cars off your head but my pair of 2" by .120 DOM steel bars won't. Go figure...
I've run Putnam with 10/10ths. They have a great program, some really good instructors and get you loads of track time. Have fun!
Jeff
bob I have a gas cap if you need one pm me with an address brian
Thanks Brian,
Once Tony gets back from the Power tour. I will see if he's got one for me. If not I'll take you up on your offer.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post240769
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
ok I have 2 extra new ones I got the new tanks and they both came with gas caps
I think the headlight bucket prototypes were 3D printed, but the final ones certainly look to be vacuum formed.
Zero Decibel Motorsports
Check out my new website!
www.zerodecibelmotorsports.com
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Somewhere on the internet [http://www.gcreate.com/#!factory-five-racing/ccwc] is the story on FF purchase of the 3D printer. The article stated that for showing the original car they printed the first set of lights. The article did not identify how big a part their 3DP can form, but I am under the impression it is larger than the Head Light Buckets. and smaller than the fender it attaches to.
I believe, they printed out the mold for the thermal form buckets.
I have fiberglass and thermal formed buckets for the original headlights. They fit each other like a glove.
I concluded that they are using fiberglass or printed parts to create the thermal formed parts.
Bob
818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread
I got my headlight buckets a couple months ago and finally took a good close look at them. They don't fit the contour of the fender worth a darn. Does anyone know what type adhesive to use to attach them to the fenders? I'm going to do a little grinding on them to close the gaps but there just isn't enough thickness there to close the worst areas and still have a flange to glue to.