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Only thing I see that you may all ready be planning... You need to fill that anti-lock sensor hole on the top of the knuckle. I personally just used some high temp RTV, clear, to fill the hole. I've seen others fabricate a nice cover that actually is held in by the adjoining bolt hole.
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Senior Member
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I had to look back at my photos but I have both of my swaybars on the outside and the spacer is on the inside of the rod end. I am driving back from Florida now so I can’t really do much more than this at the moment to help. Hope this helps
9E069396-9C7B-40D5-947E-321FABACDD7B.jpeg
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Senior Member
I would recommend getting the attachment holes the same on both sides. You may need to juggle spacers around but having the same leverage on both sides would seem important. One hint is your suspension is at full hang right now. That's taking the attachment points to their extreme and creating some unusual angles. I'd recommend getting the suspension closer to ride height and you may find the attachments are improved. At this stage of the game, you can either unbolt one end of the coilovers. Or back off the spring adjusters all the way. Then jack up both sides to where the UCA's are nearly level. I'll bet things look a little different there. Obviously, you want the attachments to still be OK at the upper and lower extremes of the suspension travel, which they should be. But you want them optimized when at ride height and that's where I'd be making decisions about how it's assembled. Makes a difference in my experience.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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Senior Member
The Build Continues
First, BIG thanks to edwardb and BadAsp427 for their advice on how to fix my little swaybar issues. I used both of their advice to correct the swaybar mounting problem, so thank you guys.
I lifted the control arm and moved the location of the spacer to the inner part of the mounting bracket, which allowed me to get the tie rods to the outside of the swaybar. This also allowed me to mount the swaybar through the 3rd hole, just like the passenger side.
I also mounted my rear Wilwood brakes. Not much fuss with this. The Wilwood components are clearly high quality and everything seems extremely precise with respect to fitment.
Everything is just finger tight at the moment. Honestly, I was scared when I saw the Wilwood instructions say to put the Red Loctite on the mounting bolts. That step felt a little too permanent for me. I'm thinking about getting further down the road before I commit to that step.
Also, I tackled the modification of the front upper control arms. I wasn't sure about this step as it's not mentioned anywhere in the build manual and I wasn't sure if this was something that FFR had fixed by the time my kit was built and the modification may be totally unnecessary or what. However, I decided to go ahead and perform the modification. I'd like to extend a specific Thank You to BadAsp427, who walked me through this modification, which turned out to be painless. Hopefully I did it right and it helps with alignment down the road.
I'll be in the garage all day tomorrow, so more updates to come.
Thanks,
Pat
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Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
The Build Continues
Everything is just finger tight at the moment. Honestly, I was scared when I saw the Wilwood instructions say to put the Red Loctite on the mounting bolts. That step felt a little too permanent for me. I'm thinking about getting further down the road before I commit to that step.
Also, I tackled the modification of the front upper control arms. I wasn't sure about this step as it's not mentioned anywhere in the build manual and I wasn't sure if this was something that FFR had fixed by the time my kit was built and the modification may be totally unnecessary or what. However, I decided to go ahead and perform the modification. I'd like to extend a specific Thank You to BadAsp427, who walked me through this modification, which turned out to be painless. Hopefully I did it right and it helps with alignment down the road.
I'll be in the garage all day tomorrow, so more updates to come.
Thanks,
Pat
You are welcome. Glad to help!
While everybody does this a little bit differently, I always like to finish one project completely if I had all the parts including torque everything. If you leave something untorqued, believe me later on you probably will not remember it. So for example on your brakes once you are ready to install them, there should be no reason not to finalize that install if everything seems to be functioning properly. It’s just my opinion but I would not leave bolts un-torqued that need to be torqued in the long run.
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Senior Member
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Are you sure you are using the correct bushings? Mine sure did not look like that.
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Senior Member
If I remember correctly, you are supposed to swap the bushings with ones supplied from FFR (the rack is a stock rack).
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Senior Member
Build Continues
Another save from the forum. I was able to located the proper bushings for my Steering Rack. I got the correct ones installed and proceeded with installing the Steering Rack.
I couldn't get the holes on the PS and DS to line up, so I ended up drilling the hole in the PS mounting tab to make it bigger. I was then able to get the bolt to go through the mounting tab and the rack was in place.
Next, I installed the rod ends, which was pretty straight forward. However, I noticed that the ends of the tie rods are REALLY close to the inside of the brake rotor.
Passenger Side
Drivers Side
I also got most of the body panels temporarily installed. I did this just to make myself feel better and to just check the fit. I think it looks pretty cool.
Then, I was able to get my front Wilwood brakes installed. It took me a little time to get the spacing right with adding and removing the shims, but ultimately I think I was able to get it looking fairly good.
Anyway, if anyone sees anything that is problematic, please please let me know.
Thanks,
Patrick
Last edited by Pat427; 03-20-2019 at 07:44 PM.
MK4-IRS, 427w, TKO-600
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Not a waxer
Judging by how much of the tie rod stud is showing both above and below the steering arms it does not appear that they are seated in the arms. Have you just not tightened the nut yet? The arms have the wide end of the taper pointing down, right?
Jeff
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Jeff Kleiner
Judging by how much of the tie rod stud is showing both above and below the steering arms it does not appear that they are seated in the arms. Have you just not tightened the nut yet? The arms have the wide end of the taper pointing down, right?
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for your response. Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't follow you when you ask about "the wide end of the taper pointing down"
I would be very appreciative if you could help me understand that question.
I have not torqued the castle nut down in those pictures.
Thanks,
Pat
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
Jeff,
Thanks for your response. Please forgive my ignorance, but I don't follow you when you ask about "the wide end of the taper pointing down"
I would be very appreciative if you could help me understand that question.
I have not torqued the castle nut down in those pictures.
Thanks,
Pat
Maybe you noticed the tie rod ends, like the upper and lower ball joints, are tapered. The end where the nut goes is smaller in diameter than the other end. So it's critical to have the mating part the same way. Can't miss with the upper and lower ball joints because the spindles only go one way. But the steering arms can go on either side. So it's important that when you install them, you confirm the hole for the tie rod ends has the larger diameter on the bottom, smaller diameter on the top where the nut goes. Note that matches how the tie rod end is tapered. If installed upside down, the tie rod ends won't seat properly, which is what Jeff was asking about. Hopefully that helps.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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Not a waxer
What Paul said
To elaborate further, when installed correctly the steering arms will angle outward (which yours appear to do) and have the wide side of the taper facing down. If yours currently have the wide end of the taper facing up you need to turn them over and swap sides.
Jeff
Last edited by Jeff Kleiner; 03-20-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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Senior Member
Bullet Dodged
Well, another save by the forum.
Thank you Jeff Kleiner and edwardb for the above help.
After reading their responses above, my ding-dong brain was able to make sense of things. As I was walking to my garage, I had that pit-in-the-bottom-of-my-stomach feeling wondering if I had those steering arms reversed by accident, because it would require significant disassembly in order to swap sides.
Well...I'm happy to say that it appears the steering arms are on the correct side. I can now see there is a taper to the hole in the steering arm. I was completely oblivious to this when I originally assembled them. So basically, it's blind luck that I put them on the correct sides.
I took a picture. In this picture, I'm laying on the ground looking upward through holes and you can see the taper.
I went back through the Factory Five Build Manual and re-read the page where it describes assembling the steering arms. I was pretty disappointed when I saw how minimal the description was with respect to this step, which could be a real problem if assembled incorrectly.
It's scenarios like this one that concerns me the most about my build. I'm starting to develop a real sense of hesitation to "permanently" put things on the car (i.e. riveting panels on the frame, using Red Loctite, etc) because I'm worried that I'll get 10 steps down the line and realize that I have to undo everything to fix some small mistake.
Anyway, I'm thankful for this forum because it not only helps me navigate this build, but it will hopefully keep me (and others) safe.
Thanks,
Patrick
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What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.... and smarter... See your Mechanical none is now some... Your doing well and asking the right questions... and learning along the way...
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Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 Likes
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Senior Member
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Sure, you got lucky.... actually FF fixed the problem on the new chassis... Looks good from what I can see in your photos... Depending on how big your feet are, you may want to move the clutch peddle (Stainless Steel Part) over to the far left. And perhaps you may even end up moving the brake peddle over as well. It is easy enough to do later in your build. It will give you more room between the two peddles as well as more room between your throttle and brake.
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03-23-2019, 08:01 PM
#100
A visit to Patrick's Build
Had a chance today to drive over to Columbia, SC in the cobra and visit with Patrick. I have to tell you, he is doing a nice job on his build. For someone with little automotive experience, he certainly does not lack confidence to attack this project. While he may ask a lot of questions, he is very willing to learn and then apply in a very detailed manner what he learns... Pat, your doing fantastic and you are going to love it even more as you go. Reach out to all of us as you need help.
And I'll just put this here for you to remember back to March 23 2019 later in your build...
Patrick's 427 Build (MechanicalKnowledgeNone).JPG
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03-24-2019, 04:00 PM
#101
Senior Member
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03-24-2019, 04:16 PM
#102
Senior Member
It's assembled that way for shipping. Nothing wrong with it. With the set screw removed, which looks like yours is, tap the serrated piece out of the arm. If you put the mounting screw only back in partway, and tap on that, comes out pretty easily. Then re-orient where you want it, re-assemble including the set screw. The other side, with the "D" shaped hole, can only be in the one position. That side doesn't move.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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03-24-2019, 07:28 PM
#103
Senior Member
Originally Posted by
edwardb
It's assembled that way for shipping. Nothing wrong with it. With the set screw removed, which looks like yours is, tap the serrated piece out of the arm. If you put the mounting screw only back in partway, and tap on that, comes out pretty easily. Then re-orient where you want it, re-assemble including the set screw. The other side, with the "D" shaped hole, can only be in the one position. That side doesn't move.
Thanks edwardb,
I did just what you said and I was able to get the pedal correctly assembled.
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03-26-2019, 03:24 PM
#104
Senior Member
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03-26-2019, 03:52 PM
#105
I put some Permatex 59235 high temp thread sealant on that fitting. You can use that stuff on just about everything, fuel, oil and brake fluid related. I don't think you can screw the fitting all the way in. It's pretty tight after a couple of turns. I just balanced it out with it being tight to the direction I wanted it facing. You'll know soon enough if you have any leaks and need to tweak it a bit. I don't recall using those brackets for the pedal box.
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03-26-2019, 04:23 PM
#106
Senior Member
Sorry to disagree -- that's a flair fitting. Like all the flair fittings in your brake lines, the seal is metal-to-metal at the flair. The threads aren't meant to seal. It's good practice to put a little brake fluid on the flair itself while assembling to provide a little lubrication when you seat the flare. But nothing more. No sealant on the threads. And yes it has to be tightened as far as it can go, with a slight grunt () to insure the seal. If you don't you're dependent on the threads and the sealant to hold up to 1000 PSI, or more, in the brake lines. Which neither is designed to do. Orientation of that part isn't a problem. the piece it's going into can rotate to whatever position you need for the T orientation. Assembly sequence would be (1) attach the mounting tab to the frame, (2) install the fitting into the tab using the clip, (3) install the T fitting and orient by rotating the fitting in the tab, (4) then install the flex line on the other side. Which BTW is also typically a flair fitting. It can be oriented properly when you tighten it.
Further clarification. Brake lines normally have a flair on the end, so they're easy to identify. For fittings like this T fitting, if you look at where the lines attach, you'll see either a male or female cone area. Those too are flair fittings. Again, the seal is metal-to-metal at the flair, so no sealant on the threads. If they're working as designed, no fluid will ever reach the threads. There are other connections in the brake system, so agreed it can be confusing. Some use banjo fittings. There the seal is provided by the aluminum or copper crush washer. Some connections are NPT. Like in Wilwood master cylinders and Wilwood calipers. Others as well. Those are the ones that need sealant, as in that case the tapered threads are providing the seal. Clear as mud?
Those spacers are for a donor master cylinder. If you're using a Wilwood pedal box, put in your extra pieces box.
Last edited by edwardb; 03-26-2019 at 08:32 PM.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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03-26-2019, 05:46 PM
#107
Senior Member
Thanks edwardb and cv2065 for your responses, I appreciate them.
Now for the rookie newbie questions of the day:
1) In the build manual it says the 3/4" master cylinder is for the front brake lines and the 5/8th master cylinder is for the rear brakes. The two master cylinders look the same to me. How do I tell which one is the 3/4" and which one is the 5/8"?
2) Are the brake lines and fuel lines the same material and brand? All the lines that came with my kit say, "Rhinohide Brake Lines".
Are the ones that say 5/16thx60 used as fuel lines? Or am I just missing the fuel lines all together?
Thank you as always,
Patrick
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03-26-2019, 05:53 PM
#108
Senior Member
Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
Thanks edwardb and cv2065 for your responses, I appreciate them.
Hopefully my flair explanation makes sense. It's important to get this part right. For your other questions:
1. The two MC's are the same physical size outside. But the bore is different. You should see marking on the body of the MC's. Mine have had .75 and .625. Not real obvious, but should be there. Note they can go on either side. Doesn't matter as far as the pedal box is concerned. They should be mounted to work best with your planned brake line routing.
2. 3/16 is for your brake lines. 5/16 is intended for fuel lines.
Last edited by edwardb; 03-26-2019 at 05:56 PM.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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03-26-2019, 07:12 PM
#109
Originally Posted by
edwardb
Sorry to disagree -- that's a flair fitting..
I stand corrected Paul. I didn’t realize that particular fitting was flared.
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03-27-2019, 09:18 AM
#110
Senior Member
Originally Posted by
edwardb
Hopefully my flair explanation makes sense. It's important to get this part right. For your other questions:
1. The two MC's are the same physical size outside. But the bore is different. You should see marking on the body of the MC's. Mine have had .75 and .625. Not real obvious, but should be there. Note they can go on either side. Doesn't matter as far as the pedal box is concerned. They should be mounted to work best with your planned brake line routing.
2. 3/16 is for your brake lines. 5/16 is intended for fuel lines.
So I called Factory Five this morning with respect to the Master Cylinder issue. I spoke with Dave who mentioned that Factory Five has recently made a change and has gone with the 3/4" Master Cylinders for both the front and rear brakes. So there is no need for me to replace anything.
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03-27-2019, 01:00 PM
#111
Patrick, I don't think you have asked this yet but you might find this thread about anti-seize vs loctite helpful, I did.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...light=Loc-tite
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03-28-2019, 01:38 PM
#112
Senior Member
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03-28-2019, 04:58 PM
#113
Senior Member
I'd try and tighten/tuck them in a bit more... you've got the material.
Take a look here
John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs
1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021
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03-29-2019, 04:17 PM
#114
Senior Member
Gravel Guard
Anyone know of a good way to get 3/16" gravel guard onto the brake lines that already have the flare and nut on them (ie..like they come in the kit)?
Thanks
Patrick
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03-29-2019, 07:03 PM
#115
Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
Gravel Guard
Anyone know of a good way to get 3/16" gravel guard onto the brake lines that already have the flare and nut on them (ie..like they come in the kit)?
Thanks
Patrick
I do not believe that is possible... You would have to cut off one of the flairs and then redue the flair yourself. I'm not sure if you can buy the brake line with it all ready on it... May have to google that one...
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03-30-2019, 07:43 AM
#116
Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
Gravel Guard
Anyone know of a good way to get 3/16" gravel guard onto the brake lines that already have the flare and nut on them (ie..like they come in the kit)?
Thanks
Patrick
I'll bet you could open up a bit of the start of the Gravel Guard and spin it onto the brake line. As you spin it on, it crawls up the tubing. You may have to trim the ends once installed to clean up. Thats the same way we install wiring harness protection ("spiral wrap") when the harness is already run and connected. Guess it depends on how stiff the Gravel Guard stuff is.
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03-30-2019, 08:06 AM
#117
Senior Member
Originally Posted by
MechanicalKnowledgeNone
Gravel Guard
Anyone know of a good way to get 3/16" gravel guard onto the brake lines that already have the flare and nut on them (ie..like they come in the kit)?
Thanks
Patrick
Agree with previous responses you likely won't get the gravel guard on lines with flares. It's not just the flare you have to get over, but also the tube nut. Just not going to happen. If you're using regular steel brake lines, e.g. the ones supplied in the kit, they're easy enough to cut off and make new flares. With a decent flaring kit of course. But I have to ask. Where are you putting your brake lines? In the normal location along the outside top of the 4-inch chassis tubes? That's the only run IMO that remotely needs the added protection and even then IMO isn't needed. In many thousand miles of driving over multiple seasons, even on our pretty crummy Michigan roads, haven't seen a hint of damage on the underside of my cars. Let alone with enough force to damage the lines. In the wheel wells, yes, and on the body itself. But that brake line location, and fuel line as well, just isn't vulnerable to the conditions we typically drive in.
Last edited by edwardb; 03-30-2019 at 08:10 AM.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017.
Build Thread
Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020.
Build Thread and
Video.
Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020.
Build Thread and
Video
Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023.
Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.
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03-31-2019, 05:12 AM
#118
Senior Member
x2 ^
It's really not necessary.
Like you, #9365 is my 1st endeavor into building a car from all new parts, but not my 1st rodeo into (re)building some old rustbucket. I'm usually dealing with stuff that's on the darker side of 50 years old.
My experience with the brake & fuel lines on these old muscle cars is that they are usually in serviceable condition everywhere except the locations the "gravel guard" was used!
The "unprotected" runs are surface rusty, but the integrity is still good and they still work. The guarded lines are where they'll snap off in your hand. It seems that the guard acts like a big coiled sponge, and all the salty water/slush/crud gets trapped in there and keeps chewing on the lines.
Think about the intended usage of a daily driver, and the environment they run in, then your FFR Roadster...
John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs
1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021
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03-31-2019, 05:41 AM
#119
x3, You really don't need the "rock guard"
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03-31-2019, 07:39 AM
#120
Not a waxer
Originally Posted by
Fixit
...My experience with the brake & fuel lines on these old muscle cars is that they are usually in serviceable condition everywhere except the locations the "gravel guard" was used!
The "unprotected" runs are surface rusty, but the integrity is still good and they still work. The guarded lines are where they'll snap off in your hand. It seems that the guard acts like a big coiled sponge, and all the salty water/slush/crud gets trapped in there and keeps chewing on the lines...
I've been messing with this stuff for over 40 years and have had the exact same experience and observation as John (this is just one of the many reasons why Jeff don't do rust anymore ).
Jeff