OK, say I want to pick up a low mileage EZ36 engine from a local auto salvage yard for a future 818C build. What are the "must have" items I should make sure to ALSO get when getting this engine?
Engine w/Heads and Intake are obvious
Exhaust is pointless (since Wayne has already said custom exhaust is probably a must-Flynntuna is suggesting Raptor headers )
What electronics?
What sensors?
Do I need Engine wire harness (assuming stock ECU-how about aftermarket). The Variable valve timing mechanism is something I am not sure about.
Engine Plumbing?
What is the minimum recommended compression test pressures before assuming it needs a rebuild (or to look elsewhere)?
There's a rumor that Cobb is working on breaking the ez36 ECU. If that's true grab the harness ,a matching set of imobilizer box and the cluster. If you go with Wayne's system, I think all you need is the engine harness for the for the connectors. There are two outlets for coolant so fabricating a two into one coolant connector is needed. Take the engine mounts too.
I asked Cobb about the NA engines including specifically the EZ 36. No plans. And even if they did all USDM EZ36 engines are mated to auto trannys, so if you're thinking manual the stock ecu even with a Cobb AP wouldn't work.
To use a manual tranny you will have to use an aftermarket ECU.
If you go auto tranny you could use the stock ECU + RomRaider + Megashift from Megasquirt. Maybe! The 3.0 with 4EAT can be done. You'd have to use the 4EAT, and no one has tried mating a 4EAT to a 3.6. The consensus is a 5EAT won't work in FWD configuration.
So 3.0 + 4EAT + Stock ECU + Megashiftwill work. As for the 3.6 + 4EAT no one really knows.
The best for a 3.6 would be an aftermarket ECU + 5 speed or 6 speed manual tranny.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
Thanks for the info, you guys (and Wayne) have the most knowledge available on the H6.
I am planning on the 5 speed manual transmission (based upon Wayne's recommendation), I'll keep my eyes open for a similar one to what Flynntuna found (Phase 2-4.44 final ratio). Glad to know they are a direct bolt up with the EZ36. Anyone know of issues in the clutch area?
So aftermarket ECU it is. Any recommendations here? This will be a street 818C car, I'm not looking for a track car (doesn't mean it won't do a little autocross). I'll make sure to get the engine wire harness for the connectors and the 2-to 1 coolant pipe.
Good news is MD MVA allows kit cars to be exempt from the emissions BS. Just have to go once to get the exemption. No Cats or OBDII required here.
Any thoughts/concerns on the clutch or the driveshafts?
You and Wayne are the most knowledgeable on this subject, so you help here is appreciated.
I am planning on the 5 speed manual transmission (based upon Wayne's recommendation), I'll keep my eyes open for a similar one to what Flynntuna found (Phase 2-4.44 final ratio). Glad to know they are a direct bolt up with the EZ36. Anyone know of issues in the clutch area?
So aftermarket ECU it is. Any recommendations here?
Any thoughts/concerns on the clutch or the driveshafts?
You and Wayne are the most knowledgeable on this subject, so you help here is appreciated.
First off I am no expert on the H6! I've done a lot of research, asked a lot of questions, bugged a lot of folks on the Legacy forum where there's more H6 EZ30-EZ36 modders than NASIOC, but have no practical experience. I personally think the EZ30 and EZ36 NA is a better answer for the mid engine 818 than trying to engineer AWICs for the turbo TMIC it was originally designed for. At least until a Ver2 818 comes out with better airflow design.
Sponaugle has more experience with modifying the EZ30 - EZ36 than anyone I know. He hasn't been on the forum much lately, but I recommend doing a thread search for his posts/threads. He speaks a lot to ECU tuning but it's all about turbo charged H6s, not NA. Do you already have a tuner? If so, and it's someone you really trust and have a great rep, you might want to use the aftermarket ECU they are familiar and comfortable with. Otherwise Wayne will be happy to sell you one and support you! You'll also probably;y want to use an aftermarket wiring harness like Wayne's or iWire.
Generally speaking the LegacyGT 5 speeds have the best gearing and are slightly stronger than older WRX trannys. Again a search of the transmission forum will find a discussion of 5 speeds.
No problems with driveshafts at stock 3.6 NA power levels.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
First off I am no expert on the H6! I've done a lot of research, asked a lot of questions, bugged a lot of folks on the Legacy forum where there's more H6 EZ30-EZ36 modders than NASIOC, but have no practical experience. I personally think the EZ30 and EZ36 NA is a better answer for the mid engine 818 than trying to engineer AWICs for the turbo TMIC it was originally designed for. At least until a Ver2 818 comes out with better airflow design.
Sponaugle has more experience with modifying the EZ30 - EZ36 than anyone I know. He hasn't been on the forum much lately, but I recommend doing a thread search for his posts/threads. He speaks a lot to ECU tuning but it's all about turbo charged H6s, not NA. Do you already have a tuner? If so, and it's someone you really trust and have a great rep, you might want to use the aftermarket ECU they are familiar and comfortable with. Otherwise Wayne will be happy to sell you one and support you! You'll also probably;y want to use an aftermarket wiring harness like Wayne's or iWire.
Generally speaking the LegacyGT 5 speeds have the best gearing and are slightly stronger than older WRX trannys. Again a search of the transmission forum will find a discussion of 5 speeds.
No problems with driveshafts at stock 3.6 NA power levels.
Yea, I have been away from the forums for a bit while getting some other projects completed, but I should be back on the 818 in January.
As Sgt. Gator mentioned, I have built a number of cars with the EZ30R, and I'm putting an EZ30R in my 818S. In my 2002 WRX with the EZ30R I am using an 07 STI 6-speed, but as mentioned above you can use either the 5-speed or the 6-speed. It is true that 5-speed or 6-speed will work, but given the rev limit and lower rpm torque of the EZ motors you would benefit from some taller gears. I originally had a JDM 6-speed in my EZ car and that was not a great match. I keep my EZs below 7k rpm, and so far they have been reliable even at >500whp.
Since you are emissions exempt, you can run pretty much any ECM. I am using a Vipec/Link (V88) in both of my EZ cars, and I can give you my wiring diagram and map as a starting point if interested. I have the Vipec setup to control both the AVCS and the AVLS, and you can use either DBW or DBC throttle bodies.
Let me know if you have any other questions, or if you happen to visit the Oregon area you can stop by.
Thanks for the info and the invite. Family plans have me in the Pacific Northwest next summer, but in Montana, not Oregon.
I may take you up on the other offer, but I have to wait a little longer before I can start plunking down any real money. (Daughter has 3 more semesters to go and then a lot of the money that used to go to college can then go toward the car). In the meantime, I am bargain shopping for suitable parts to use. If a good deal comes along on a donor, I want to jump on it.
I want to build a street-able H6 with a 5 speed (just not interested in the turbo at this point). I actually found a EZ36 in a local auto salvage with under 75K miles. Haven't stumbled on any EZ30's.
What would be a "fair" price for either of these motors?
I want to build a street-able H6 with a 5 speed (just not interested in the turbo at this point)....
What would be a "fair" price for either of these motors?
That's my direction too. I found an EZ30R from a wrecked 2006 Tribeca in San Antonio (Craigslist). $1,400 for the engine, harness, ECU, and a bunch of other stuff. $300 freight San Jose, CA.
I am finding EZ30s now. Couple dumb questions: If the H6 engine came out of an automatic car, do you have to change the flywheel to when you go to the 5 speed manual? If the 5 speed comes from a H4, what about the clutch?
That's my direction too. I found an EZ30R from a wrecked 2006 Tribeca in San Antonio (Craigslist). $1,400 for the engine, harness, ECU, and a bunch of other stuff. $300 freight San Jose, CA.
Originally Posted by PSUalum1986
I am finding EZ30s now. Couple dumb questions: If the H6 engine came out of an automatic car, do you have to change the flywheel to when you go to the 5 speed manual? If the 5 speed comes from a H4, what about the clutch?
I'm just getting started building my 2nd 818S.
IMHO building a street car, I would go with a 2.5L out of a 06-07 NA Impreza with 5mt. Plenty of to torque and power for an 1800# car.
If autocrossing or tracking the car, I understand the bigger power (turbo or H6).
For both my cars I started with an 2004 forester XT 2.5L turbo Automatic.
I needed manual pedal box ($25 ebay) Clutch master and slave cylinder, transmission, flywheel and starter.
I removed all the automatic stuff from the harness and reflashed my ECU with 04 FXT MT file.
Bob
I am finding EZ30s now. Couple dumb questions: If the H6 engine came out of an automatic car, do you have to change the flywheel to when you go to the 5 speed manual? If the 5 speed comes from a H4, what about the clutch?
You use the clutch and flywheel that mate with the tranny. The engine doesn't matter.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
I'm just getting started building my 2nd 818S.
IMHO building a street car, I would go with a 2.5L out of a 06-07 NA Impreza with 5mt. Plenty of to torque and power for an 1800# car.
If autocrossing or tracking the car, I understand the bigger power (turbo or H6).
Yea, I probably should have looked more at the 2.5NA option, but they don't seem that common either. As far as "plenty" of anything, well- that's always debatable! (like the others doing it) I'm looking forward to the H6.
Originally Posted by PSUalum1986
I am finding EZ30s now. Couple dumb questions: If the H6 engine came out of an automatic car, do you have to change the flywheel to when you go to the 5 speed manual? If the 5 speed comes from a H4, what about the clutch?
I asked the same question in another thread, and Wayne posted that the flywheel, clutch, cylinder, starter, etc. all match the transmission. Mine are 12 miles apart but obviously he knows these things well.
I am not a Subaru person so someone please help me here. Am I correct, the H6 engine never was mated to a manual transmission by Subaru in any model they have (True/False). If that is true, how do we know if the gearing (final drive) is appropriate for the H6 (EZ30/EZ36). I understand that the transmission fits, but if it isn't geared for the engine, we have no way of knowing how it will drive. In Wayne's earlier post, someone asked how the gearing was, and Wayne confessed that he had not driven it enough to say if a final ratio change was necessary. Based on what I see, the 5 speed has only three stock final drives thru the years, (3.900, 4.111, and 4.444). The automatics that I'm seeing mated to the H6 all have much lower ratios than even the 3.900.
My guess would be for a street car, the 3.900 would be the most appropriate one to look for, the others are too tall (probably just fine for a track car).
Now, all bets are off if the 818 uses a larger diameter rear tire than the stock Subaru (which it probably is). Does someone want to shed a little light here and set me straight.
I am not a Subaru person so someone please help me here. Am I correct, the H6 engine never was mated to a manual transmission by Subaru in any model they have (True/False). If that is true, how do we know if the gearing (final drive) is appropriate for the H6 (EZ30/EZ36). I understand that the transmission fits, but if it isn't geared for the engine, we have no way of knowing how it will drive. In Wayne's earlier post, someone asked how the gearing was, and Wayne confessed that he had not driven it enough to say if a final ratio change was necessary. Based on what I see, the 5 speed has only three stock final drives thru the years, (3.900, 4.111, and 4.444). The automatics that I'm seeing mated to the H6 all have much lower ratios than even the 3.900.
My guess would be for a street car, the 3.900 would be the most appropriate one to look for, the others are too tall (probably just fine for a track car).
Now, all bets are off if the 818 uses a larger diameter rear tire than the stock Subaru (which it probably is). Does someone want to shed a little light here and set me straight.
While it is true that Subaru didn't release a manual EZ30 car, that doesn't mean a manual will not work. When you talk about 'appropriate' there is an implication that there is some single right ratio that works, and other ratios that will not work. In practice there are lots of variables that change what kind of ratios will work well. Keep in mind I have an EZ30R in my 2002 WRX with a 6-speed manual transmission, and it works great. It would probably be a bit better with slightly longer gears, but given the wide torque curve and the size of turbo I can stay in full boost going thru all of the gears.
You also can't just look at the final drive. Consider that in the 6-speed the 6th gear is 0.756, while the top (4th gear) in the automatic is .684 (for an older WRX). You would need to take the ratios of each gear, combined with the final drive, then make a useful comparison.
The primary reason you might want to shoot for a taller overall drive is the rev limit of the EZ30R, which in my case is set to 7,000 rpm. At very high power levels traction will become a problem, as well as the need to shift more. If your focus is on drag racing, you might want a setup that can complete the 1/4 mile in 4th gear and depending on your trap speed that might be difficult to do with the stock 6-speed, or even stock 5-speed.
Of course if you are making that kind of power, you would have a custom transmission with straight cut gears, which is what I have in my 818. I'm also running 295s in the rear on my 818, so I'm already a little out there.
I would agree that you should consider only the 3.9, not the 4.111 or 4.444 given the engine rpm limits and the tire size limits... but the right answer is simple.. do the math and know your power band.
Thanks Jeff. What I was trying to say didn't come out as it should. You confirmed a bunch of my thoughts with what you said. Fortunately I have plenty of time to research this more.
I was hoping that someone had "done the math" already and had more info.
Thanks Jeff. What I was trying to say didn't come out as it should. You confirmed a bunch of my thoughts with what you said. Fortunately I have plenty of time to research this more.
I was hoping that someone had "done the math" already and had more info.
No worries. I can post up a spreadsheet for trying different ratios. A lot depends on how you have configured the EZ30R. If you are running a smaller turbo that spools faster and runs out more up top, you might be better served with longer gears. When I first did the EZ30R in my bugeye, I had a JDM 6 speed which has very short 5th and 6th gears. That was noticeable, and when I eventually switched to USDM gears things improved.
Are you planning on doing a turbo configuration, or stay NA? It would be difficult to rev this engine much over 7k rpm without changing the buckets, eliminating the AVLS, and changing cams.
While there is some optimization that can be done, honestly the EZ motor will work well with most of the available Subaru manual transmissions, especially given the light weight of the 818.
I would add one other thing... The EZ30s in NA are dogs. I spent quite a bit of time trying to eek out more power in a NA and there was not a lot to be had. A well tuned EJ25 with a small turbo can make more torque everywhere and more HP up top. Now is you put a small turbo on the EZ, then things really come alive!
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
All 06+ 5MT cars are 3.7 FD and quite a bit stronger than the earlier 5MT.
Tony
Indeed. Here is a chart some various transmission options.
If you look at this and use the torque/hp curve from my EZ30R as a reference
Where torque comes on is based a lot in what turbo you are using. If you put a 30R on, you will be at peak torque by 3600 rpm, while with a .82 35R you are look at 4500rpm. It is ideal to have the shift point such that you land close to the beginning of the peak torque area, and can carry that gear as far as possible.
With my EZ30R setup, The PPG gears will work pretty well. The 1st to 2nd is a little bit bigger jump (down to 4150rpm), but manageable. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear shifts are well places to keep things in the torque island.
The 06-07 WRX with the 3.7 FD does give you good range per gear. If you took an 08 5-speed and put the 3.7 ring gear (easy to do for our 818s), you probably have the best setup.
JDM SUBARU LEGACY SPEC B
EZ30 EZ30D 3.0L 2005
ENGINE 6 SPEED TRANSMISSION ECU
COMPLETE SWAP
US $5,450.00
INCLUDED ITEMS:
COMPLETE ENGINE +
6 SPEED TRANSMISSION+
ECU+
WIRE HARNESS HARNESS+
AXLE FRONT & REAR X 4
REAR DIFFERENTIAL
REAR CROSS MEMBER
FRONT CROSS MEMBER
AIR FLOW SENSOR & BOX
PROPELLER SHAFT
ALL THE PARTS ATTACHED TO THE ENGINE
43,500 MILES
COMPRESSION TESTED
TAKEN OUT OF A PERFECT RUNNING CAR
IMPORTED FROM JAPAN
MADE IN JAPAN
The only issue I see is the JDM Legacy Spec B tranny is open diff, so you'd probably want to install an LSD, or sell the 6 speed tranny and use a 5 speed. There are many WRX/Legacy folks who will be happy to buy the 6 speed. The tranny ID is in the pics: TY856WVBAA. It's got the nice Legacy gear ratios for a road racer.
There's probably other issues I haven't considered though.
I bought a JDM Acura B18 engine for my Integra race car, it runs great still after 3 years of racing.
Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 02-01-2016 at 01:38 AM.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
a little off topic but are the ez30 and ez36 interchangeable, like the ej20 and ej25 stuff. i have a ez30 complete motor that i may use in the future but have access to a rebuildable long block core ez36. will the intake and other assessory fit? thx
Bumping this thread to add that to make the EZ36 fit some mods to the frame motor mounting bracket will have to be made. First off a new slot for the engine mount will need to be made 1-1/14"back from the stock location . The mounting bracket front corner will need to modified for custom header clearances, also I'm fairly certain that spacers will be needed to raise the engine to make clearance for the front engine mount ( I moved the slot 1" back and the front mount just touches the frame) to clear. A mounting bracket for the front engine mount will also have to be fabricated.
Found a thread on the 914 world forum with some one using an EZ30 engine. Pg's 14,15 have a Good discussion on heater bypass. Though I'd pass it along since they mention our forum.