Talk me out of a GTM.

[Todd00000]

I've been researching kit cars for 25 years and I'm ready to build something with my son. Even the cheapest exoskeleton kits get very close to FFR Cobra prices once you price everything, and money being almost equal I'd rather build a solid kit with solid support like this forum.

What does it really cost to build a GTM, not a show car, a runner with a LS1 or 2?


Todd

[GoDadGo]

Tod,

I know nothing about the GTM; however, I just saw this on Bring-A-Trailer.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...ry-five-gtm-2/

Can't hurt to check it out.

Steve

[Todd00000]

Tod,

I know nothing about the GTM; however, I just saw this on Bring-A-Trailer.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...ry-five-gtm-2/

Can't hurt to check it out.

Steve

I really want to build something with my son. I already have a Mustang that I bought.

[FF33rod]

I virtually know nothing about the GTM either but doesn't it use Vette parts, not Mustang?
Also, my uninformed impression is that it is by far the most difficult FFR build there is with much fewer revisions than the other kits with typical build times much much longer.
None of this may be a problem for you but always good to go in eyes wide open
Steve

P.S. some quick comments from one person's experience in building the various kits https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ng-10-FFR-kits

[Presto51]

I've been researching kit cars for 25 years and I'm ready to build something with my son. Even the cheapest exoskeleton kits get very close to FFR Cobra prices once you price everything, and money being almost equal I'd rather build a solid kit with solid support like this forum.

What does it really cost to build a GTM, not a show car, a runner with a LS1 or 2?


Todd

Well the answer is dependent on your "sweat equity" skill set, how strong your are in keeping project creep in check, with those in mind, you should be looking at, fifty to seventy grand.

Thanks

Ron

[David Hodgkins]

2 letters:

F9.

It will accept mustang parts, and the end result will be as exotic, if not more so.

Coming later this year from FFR!

[Todd00000]

I want a rear mid-engine car. I've owned Corvettes, Mustangs, and old Ferrari's, so I don't care where the donor car comes from.

[wallace18]

The GTM is a very difficult build and takes a lot of work to make the body correct.Windows for the doors are a major PITA. FFR's GTM in the showroom has no side windows in it for a reason. That being said it is a cool car, but it takes so much more effort than all the rest of the FFR cars. Just my 2-cents worth.

[crash]

The bodywork seems to be the sticking point as far as individual talent and time, while the transaxle is the most expensive part you will need to add to the kit to complete the car. You should carefully research and consider these two factors before buying.

[Todd00000]

I virtually know nothing about the GTM either but doesn't it use Vette parts, not Mustang?
Also, my uninformed impression is that it is by far the most difficult FFR build there is with much fewer revisions than the other kits with typical build times much much longer.
None of this may be a problem for you but always good to go in eyes wide open
Steve

P.S. some quick comments from one person's experience in building the various kits https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ng-10-FFR-kits

Well ****, if he doesn't want to build another GTM then with my skill set I should stick to the Cobra.

[claybags]

The final cost depends on soooo many variables, skill sets, time, tools, new parts vs used parts, and experience in some frustration. It can be done for as little as $40K and as much as you care to spend. The sky's the limit. After all, it's only money.
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. I did EVERYTHING on my 2nd GTM, and have probably $55K in it. Nothing exotic, just the basics and I can verify …. there's nothing like driving raw POWER!!

Good luck with your decision, Cheers, Jeff

[NAZ]

GTM? What, are you crazy? The kid will love the 33HR when y'all finish it. It's the most blank canvas for you to create a one of a kind cool boulevard cruiser. Build a GTM and people will stare trying to figure out what it is. Build a hot rod and people will smile and wave -- everyone knows what a hot rod is and everyone loves them. And your son is going to be very popular in High School when he cruises to school in it.

Less work, less expensive, and more cool. It's a no brainer.

[GoDadGo]

I don't care where the donor car comes from.

Todd,

Dino's Corvette Salvage is where I purchased a lot of stuff for my old Corvette.
They will assist you if you can't find the goodies you need.

https://corvettesalvage.com/c5-used-...ist-1997-2004/

I'm lucky because they are only about 20 miles from my home.
Hope this helps.

Steve

[Garage Guy]

Talk you out of it I thought the same thing that David did F9

[FF33rod]

While we're chatting about the idiosyncrasies of the GTM, I've always wondered about inspection, registration, insurance? This will be applicable to the F9 as well.

The hot rod, pickup, Coupe and Roadster are all replicas so while individual state/province requirements vary, those are typically exempt from modern safety requirements. How does that work with the GTM?

Steve

[Al_C]

GTM? What, are you crazy? The kid will love the 33HR when y'all finish it. It's the most blank canvas for you to create a one of a kind cool boulevard cruiser. Build a GTM and people will stare trying to figure out what it is. Build a hot rod and people will smile and wave -- everyone knows what a hot rod is and everyone loves them. And your son is going to be very popular in High School when he cruises to school in it.

Less work, less expensive, and more cool. It's a no brainer.

I was going to recommend a roadster. Then I saw NAZ's post. He has a point!

[crash]

While we're chatting about the idiosyncrasies of the GTM, I've always wondered about inspection, registration, insurance? This will be applicable to the F9 as well.

The hot rod, pickup, Coupe and Roadster are all replicas so while individual state/province requirements vary, those are typically exempt from modern safety requirements. How does that work with the GTM?

Steve

At least in CA you can declare what it "most resembles" which most say is a 1960s Ford GT 40. This gets the smog requirements exempted going forward.

The F9? Not going to resemble anything that old, so likely will require smog components, and also biannual smog inspections.

[David Hodgkins]

At least in CA you can declare what it "most resembles" which most say is a 1960s Ford GT 40. This gets the smog requirements exempted going forward.

The F9? Not going to resemble anything that old, so likely will require smog components, and also biannual smog inspections.

I thought if it didn't resemble anything the default of 1960 is used for purposes of smog equipment and is still exempt from smog checks.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1...n/dmv/vr/spcns

[michael everson]

Having built 150 plus FFRs including now my third GTM, I would run away if this is your first kit.
Look at the Cobra or hotrod. The Cobra is by far the easiest and most refined out of all of them.

I am building a GTM with a customer and have about 30 hours into each door and power window and still not done.

Mike

[NAZ]

I thought if it didn't resemble anything the default of 1960 is used for purposes of smog equipment and is still exempt from smog checks.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1...n/dmv/vr/spcns

In AZ mine is titled as a 1933 Ford and the original sale date on the title is 1933. There is a major significance in that small detail. If you've seen my build album you'll know that this is a race car that just happens to be street legal (sorta) and has absolutely NO SMOG CONTROLS, nada, even has open breathers just like the original 1933 Ford -- as naked as can be. So I can basically do any thing I want to the engine and I'm legal. That's not the case if I built a GTM or other non-replica car. One of the reasons I chose the Hot Rod. After living under the draconian thumb of the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia and their looney tune laws, AZ is my hot rod paradise. Your mileage may vary.

[crash]

I thought if it didn't resemble anything the default of 1960 is used for purposes of smog equipment and is still exempt from smog checks.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1...n/dmv/vr/spcns

Read what you linked to carefully...

" a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose an emission control inspection based on the year model of the vehicle or the engine used in the vehicle (If the vehicle or engine does not resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the year model)."

The problem here is if you say that the car does not resemble anything then they can look at the engine and if it matches something modern, like a C5 Corvette? then it must be up to those requirements. This is why, I believe, everyone here states that it resembles a Ford GT 40.

[Alan_C]

In AZ mine is titled as a 1933 Ford and the original sale date on the title is 1933. There is a major significance in that small detail. If you've seen my build album you'll know that this is a race car that just happens to be street legal (sorta) and has absolutely NO SMOG CONTROLS, nada, even has open breathers just like the original 1933 Ford -- as naked as can be. So I can basically do any thing I want to the engine and I'm legal. That's not the case if I built a GTM or other non-replica car. One of the reasons I chose the Hot Rod. After living under the draconian thumb of the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia and their looney tune laws, AZ is my hot rod paradise. Your mileage may vary.

So are you paying registration on it as 1933 being the year of manufacture? If you are, this is fraud and I would not go bragging about it as the MVD might figure it out one day.

[cob427sc]

I built one of the first GTM's after building numerous other cars plus 3 cobras and a daytona coupe. It was not an easy build, although I suspect things have improved over the years. If you haven't built kit cars before you are taking on quite a task. It can be done as I know of at least 2 that were built by novice builders. Windows are time consuming but can be made to work and seal properly. As far as cost, plan on $45-50k with you doing all the work.

[David Hodgkins]

Read what you linked to carefully...

" a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose an emission control inspection based on the year model of the vehicle or the engine used in the vehicle (If the vehicle or engine does not resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the year model)."

The problem here is if you say that the car does not resemble anything then they can look at the engine and if it matches something modern, like a C5 Corvette? then it must be up to those requirements. This is why, I believe, everyone here states that it resembles a Ford GT 40.

An SPCNS certificate of sequence identifies a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose an emission control inspection based on the year model of the vehicle or the engine used in the vehicle (If the vehicle or engine does not resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the year model).

I fixed it for you. Choose to have the inspection based on the BODY STYLE.

[NAZ]

So are you paying registration on it as 1933 being the year of manufacture? If you are, this is fraud and I would not go bragging about it as the MVD might figure it out one day.

Not sure you've been through the registration process in AZ but I presented my car for inspection at the MVD including all the required documents on parts purchases, cost of the build, and the documents provided by FFR showing this was a kit car. The MVD titled the car as a 1933 Ford, first sold in 1933, and indicated it was a FFR vehicle.

So please help me understand how I committed fraud. Perhaps your an attorney specializing in vehicle registration fraud -- maybe I need to hire you to represent me as now the world knows my car is titled as a 1933 Ford. I'm sure law enforcement will be at my front door tomorrow to arrest me and confiscate my car. Or maybe you don't have a clue about how the MVD titles kit cars in AZ and are just blowin' smoke out your rear. Regardless, I don't really care what you think but if you're going to accuse someone of fraud be prepared to back that up. Also, feel free to report me at your earliest convenience. Or maybe you should just refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about.

[i.e.427]

I thought if it didn't resemble anything the default of 1960 is used for purposes of smog equipment and is still exempt from smog checks.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1...n/dmv/vr/spcns

Read what you linked to carefully...

" a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose an emission control inspection based on the year model of the vehicle or the engine used in the vehicle (If the vehicle or engine does not resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the year model)."

The problem here is if you say that the car does not resemble anything then they can look at the engine and if it matches something modern, like a C5 Corvette? then it must be up to those requirements. This is why, I believe, everyone here states that it resembles a Ford GT 40.

An SPCNS certificate of sequence identifies a vehicle as one for which the owner may choose an emission control inspection based on the year model of the vehicle or the engine used in the vehicle (If the vehicle or engine does not resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the year model).

I fixed it for you. Choose to have the inspection based on the BODY STYLE.

Just to be clear.

4. How is the model-year of a specially constructed vehicle determined?
As required by Health and Safety Code section 44017.4, a specially constructed vehicle must be inspected by the Referee to assign the vehicle model-year and to determine the emissions control system requirements. The vehicle owner has the option to choose whether the model-year is based on the engine model-year used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year.

If the owner chooses to have vehicle's model-year based on the engine model-year, the Referee will compare the vehicle's engine to engines of the era that the engine most closely resembles. Similarly, if the consumer chooses to have the vehicle's model-year based on the vehicle body, the Referee will compare the vehicle to vehicles of the era that the vehicle most closely resembles.

If the engine or vehicle body does not sufficiently resemble a previously manufactured engine or vehicle body, the Referee will assign the 1960 model-year to the specially constructed vehicle.

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/Refe..._Vehicles.aspx

[beeman]

The Roadster build was about 20% of the difficulty of the GTM build and I'm not done with the GTM yet. If you understand what the GTM is (you won't find that information on FFR's site, you need to study the forums) you will enjoy it.
I think the GTM would be borderline unbuildable without the help of the great people on these forums.

[Keith1]

I built a GTM, finished it a bit over a year ago. It was WAY out of my area of expertise and it was the first kit car I have ever built. I loved the way the GTM looked and figured if I was going to build a kit car I had to be excited about how it looked. It took me around 2 years working most evenings and lots of weekends. It was one of the most frustrating and fulfilling experiences I have had. It took a lot of research and learning as I went. I had to learn many new things I knew nothing about. The people on the forum were invaluable and very kind, especially Shane from VRaptor. The instruction book leaves a lot to desire. The doors and door windows will drive you crazy. But, I did it and its a blast to drive. Its an incredible feeling of accomplishment. It gets a ton of attention every time I take it out. I put all new parts in it except for the fuel tanks. I put in several upgrades and bought a lot of stuff from Vraptor Speedworks. I put a new crate LS3 in it and a new Mendeola transaxle. I did a fair bit of body work myself but hired out the finishing work. It cost me around $83K. I don't think I would ever build another one, but I'm glad I did it.

[KGTM]

Well if you have many years for free weekends then this may be for you.

I bought mine mid 2009, got to go cart in few years, and sort of halted, some because of works, health and just tired of working on it every weekend with small progress, body work set at shop for over two years and 20K of work and still not perfect, wanted to do more work on interior and decided enough is enough and just wanted to finish it before it is end of me, things got easier after that.

Cost if not low, these days, 25k for kit, 10K tranny, new parts will cost you over 20k, engine at least 6K, paint and body may be 15K and 5K for all the other stuff you will be surprised of all the trip to hardware store and buying small stuff at high cost so Keith is right about 80k and this is nothing fancy.

I have all my own design of electronic and lcd dash my cost has been 10 of thousand of dollars but this was my choice so no really part of the cost but add another 5K if you want modern look, remotes LCD display, door poppers, power steering, big wheels and so on.

This will make your weekend go by very fast, think twice and think again before you do anything on this car, other wise things will go on and then back off to do the next thing and so on, I do not remember how many times I have had seats in and out or my gas tanks.

Not sure if I will do it again, but proud of doing it and finishing with CA registration recently.

Mostafa

[Jim Stabe]

Well if you have many years for free weekends then this may be for you.

I bought mine mid 2009, got to go cart in few years, and sort of halted, some because of works, health and just tired of working on it every weekend with small progress, body work set at shop for over two years and 20K of work and still not perfect, wanted to do more work on interior and decided enough is enough and just wanted to finish it before it is end of me, things got easier after that.

Cost if not low, these days, 25k for kit, 10K tranny, new parts will cost you over 20k, engine at least 6K, paint and body may be 15K and 5K for all the other stuff you will be surprised of all the trip to hardware store and buying small stuff at high cost so Keith is right about 80k and this is nothing fancy.

I have all my own design of electronic and lcd dash my cost has been 10 of thousand of dollars but this was my choice so no really part of the cost but add another 5K if you want modern look, remotes LCD display, door poppers, power steering, big wheels and so on.

This will make your weekend go by very fast, think twice and think again before you do anything on this car, other wise things will go on and then back off to do the next thing and so on, I do not remember how many times I have had seats in and out or my gas tanks.

Not sure if I will do it again, but proud of doing it and finishing with CA registration recently.

Mostafa

After spending all that money just for parts (forget about the labor) an LS7 powered one sold on Sunday at Barratt Jackson for $42k and he didn't even get that much after paying the buyer's premium.

[MultumInParvo]

I can chime in here. I built a GTM starting in 2006, finally had it registered in 2016.

The GTM is a completely analog mid engine super car that will never be re-created outside of an S7, F1, or super car that sells for many hundreds of thousands of dollars now. You could argue C8 corvette, but I is a dual clutch auto really an engaging experience? Fast yes, but engaging no.

It took me over 9 years and I didn't even complete it on my own. Ended up trailing it our to the middle of Iowa and having Shane complete it for me.

Why did it take forever? For me, wiring. Buy a wiring harness. Don't second guess it, buy one save yourself hundreds of hours. I also started from a salvaged corvette and parted that our piece by piece, which took some time, but was way easier than the GTM build.

What else took time? In the same period I, went to college, got a career, got married, bought my first house, then my second... My point is this, life gets busy. It's easy to think, "i'll get it done before... blank" but what if you don't? Will you complete it on your own if you're not done by the time your son moves out?

As for costs, I think it really depends on how much you want to spend. I think you'll find a lot of people are close or past six figures. I don't think it needs to be that much, but particularly if you spread it out over years and it is something you keep forever... Costs get easy to justify!

Talk you out of it? Sorry. I think you should do it assuming you have the financial means. It was one of the coolest, most fun experiences I have had to date. I spent a lot of time building it with my father, my best friend, my wife. I spent evening after evening in the garage toiling away trying to figure the next step out. And I get a reminder of all of those experiences every time I walk into my garage.

There are few better things I think you could do with your son. The cobra, 35, 33, are all awesome, but not a custom designed mid engines super car you built in your garage!

[KGTM]

I can totally see that as like any other car value does not go up in most cases.

I think building this is not about selling it for more than one spent on it, it is like a journey/trip/vacation, it cost you instead of paying you back.

It is like the a 10000 piece lego, there is no financial pay back for putting it together, just your own pleasure and personal achievement and that is the payback.

Mostafa

[flynntuna]

I want a rear mid-engine car. I've owned Corvettes, Mustangs, and old Ferrari's, so I don't care where the donor car comes from.

You shouldn't rule out the 818. Its mid engine and buy far much easier to build.
Granted it's not a "super car", but it is cheaper to build and wont be overwhelming like a GTM can get.

[Keith1]

Mostafa is exactly correct, this project isn't about a good financial investment. You will never get anywhere close to what you spend on it when or if you sell it. Don't embark on this adventure if your spending money you can't afford to lose. This project is about achievement and building memories. My Dad (now 89 years old) and I had a great adventure building the GTM, an experience that I'll never forget.

[MultumInParvo]

You shouldn't rule out the 818. Its mid engine and buy far much easier to build.
Granted it's not a "super car", but it is cheaper to build and wont be overwhelming like a GTM can get.

You know... Didn't think of the 818. That might be a better, 'more logical' choice. Mid-engine, easier to build, cheaper.

[GoDadGo]

I really think the introduction of the 2020 Corvette C/8 is going to change everything including the future of the GTM.

https://youtu.be/S2_u8W0Re0c

With that said the fact that Factory Five is now developing a much easier to build super car, that is a front engine type, simply makes sense.

[beeman]

Front engine supercar? I think we're getting lax on our terminology.

[GoDadGo]

.................Yes Mr. Bee; A Front Engine Supercar!



I truly think the new car from Factory Five will change everything so check out their proposed chassis.

https://youtu.be/qtTM67RfFyk

Also, check out what is on BAT right now:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...12-berlinetta/

[beeman]

I'd say "Muscle Car That Can Handle the Corners Too"
What are we calling the new Mustang GT500?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the concept...

[Presto51]

You know... Didn't think of the 818. That might be a better, 'more logical' choice. Mid-engine, easier to build, cheaper.

818 - Humm wonder if you can do a LS swap

Just kidding, going back to the popcorn stand.

Ron