Danny Boy's Mk4 Build - Putting the project on hold for a while...

[facultyofmusic]

I heard back from Norm of KRC Power. I confirmed that the belt has the correct part number (4060267). Belt No. 4060267 is supposed to be 26.7" in length. I didn't have an accurate way of measuring the belt, but from what I could measure it was around that ball park. I also verified that I had the right spacers in the right location. In conclusion, it's just an unfortunate situation where the belt may have been a little too short, the reservoir may have been just a little too far to the left, and that damn bump on the engine head maybe just a little bigger than usual. Regardless, the interference was REALLY, REALLY small. I understand how this can result from a few compounded errors within tolerance of each component.

Seeing there wasn't anything that I did wrong as far as I could tell, I decided the best way forward was to modify the bracket to bring the reservoir pivot point a bit closer to the driver side by 1/8". That, in turn, should allow the top of the reservoir to rotate and clear the bump. I took a file and filed the 3 holes of the bracket in the opposite direction of movement, ground down the washers a little to allow the extra bias, and mounted the bracket.
20220223_145656.jpg 20220223_145713.jpg

With the bracket moved by ~1/8", I successfully mounted the pump and reservoir. Unlike before reservoir could now sit fully against the bracket without grinding on the bump. There's now about an 1/32" gap between the reservoir and the bump. The reservoir itself is still sitting counter-clockwise from the vertical, but I'm completely okay with that.
20220223_165254.jpg 20220223_165305.jpg

The pump is on! I don't think there's anything else I want to attach to the engine before I drop it back in. Things I'll install after the engine goes back in are:

1. Alternator (may bump into my brake lines during install)
2. Oil filter (generally in the way when the engine is in mid air)
3. Headers (will be installed when the engine is just above the mounts)

A big thank you to everyone that helped me out with this!

[facultyofmusic]

Over the past few days I've been playing around with the dash. TBH I still can't decide on the layout I want. I love the look of the competition dash, but I also the practicality of the street dash. I've been combing through dozens of threads on dash ideas (especially this one) and so far I've come up with something like this (please excuse the terrible photoshop, I borrowed the picture from this post and just moved stuff around):
mock_dash.jpg

It's got the 3-gauges behind the wheel like the competition dash, but I also have both tach and speedo in sight. Best of both words or the b*****d child of two unfortunate ideas? What I don't like is how the center section looks a little empty. I believe adding a larger glovebox would help as well as a plaque. I don't want to add any switch that I can't easily reach when driving. Passenger creature comfort? That's a tomorrow problem for a tomorrow Daniel. Haha. With all honesty I see myself debating about this dash layout for MONTHS. What I'll do now is wire it in such a way that doesn't make anything final so I can change it later when I finally come up with something I'm happy with.

Something less ambiguous: The dash is *FLOPPY*. Pulling/pushing the light dimmer switch in and out shakes the whole dash around and the whole thing looks super flimsy. Yes, it's just a thin sheet of aluminum, but I sure wish it doesn't look that way. I decided to add dashboard reinforcements to improve the "floppiness".

There are many threads on this topic. Based on what I've gathered, here are the few key points / goals:

• The dashboard aluminum is longer than the body curve. Identify where the bend happens by pre-fitting it onto the body (which I did).
• Make the dashboard easily removable for maintenance. Removable without taking off the body.
• Tip from Jeff: Don't drill the center hole until the body is painted! Or else everyone's gonna see that you have an off-center "center hole".
• Make bottom support panels to add extra rigidity to the dash like the one in this post.

P.S. Please excuse the unorganized mosaic of sound dampening material all over the dash aluminum. I had pieces left over and didn't know where else to put it...

I started by making bottom-support panels using left-over aluminum sheets I had laying around:
dash_bottom_mount1.jpg 20220223_194144.jpg dash_bottom_mount2.jpg
Right now I only made one for the passenger side. Later on I realized the two smaller supports on the driver side isn't enough to prevent the "flop", so I'll make a driver side one too.

At the end of the dash near the door hinges, the dashboard bends and curves under the body. I test fitted this with the body and identified where the flat part of the "dash ends". At the tip of the aluminum are 90 degree bends that attach to the frame at a 45 degree angle, which I'll refer to as dash-tabs.
dash_tab_bends1.jpg dash_tab_bends2.jpg

Using steel strips I made dash-end mounts to make sure the dash is solid before the bend. This ensures the flat part of the dash STAYS flat, unaffected by the twist and bends.
dash_mount_points1.jpg dash_mount_points2.jpg

I made some dash-tab mounts that are removable without screws. It's essentially a steel strip with a 45 degree slot cut into it. The 45 degree dash-tabs can be inserted into the slots which will hold it in place. To remove the dash, simple push it out of the slots.
tab_mount1.jpg tab_mount2.jpg

With these changes the sides of the dash are rock solid and removable. The center is still floppy, however. I'll come up with a plan for that next. Perhaps make more dash-end mounts that sit near the center of the dash.

[facultyofmusic]

Took the chance of a free Sunday to coat the trans tunnel as well as parts of the under-body aluminum. Woke up super early to do this because the last time I did it in the evening the fumes leaked into the house and TVOC (total volatile organic compounds, measure of air quality) JUMPED to unhealthy levels in the night. This time I'm doing it early so I have time to keep the garage open and point the shop fan at it full blast.

Didn't have much chance for pictures during setup, but here are some results:
20220227_113618.jpg 20220227_113615.jpg 20220227_114946.jpg

TBH it doesn't look nearly as good as I had hoped. I am, however, satisfied with the results. I'm much less worried about rust and corrosion in the trans tunnel area. I'll trim and scrape the places with excess sealant. Overall, a good days work. It's probably not that much improvement all things considered, but at least now I know my brain won't keep bugging me about my bare trans tunnel after the engine is in place.

[Fman]

FOM, what are you trying to accomplish by coating the inside of your trans tunnel? Heat reduction? Just a suggestion, go out buy a roll of thermo tech and peel and stick it on. No mess or toxic fumes to breathe and will do the task of heat and noise reduction. You can also it inside the top cover piece as well, I should also add the trans tunnel does not get that hot to begin with, nothing in comparison to the firewall area. One other tip, when you install your engine/trans slide the drive shaft in when transmission is coming through the tunnel area. You will have much more space to work with, we did this on a friends build and it was much easier doing it this way then trying to squeeze it in once the transmission is fully pushed in and mounts are installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-14...e%2C255&sr=1-5

[egchewy79]

the trans tunnel is aluminum, so rusting is not going to be an issue. I don't think many coat the inside of the tunnel for that reason. sound deadening is a separate issue.
might be too late, but most find it easier to cover the dash first before bending the ends. Not sure what your plans are for the dash face. also, most dashes I've seen just need to be bent it in one plane. looks like you're bending and twisting the ends.

[facultyofmusic]

FOM, what are you trying to accomplish by coating the inside of your trans tunnel? Heat reduction? Just a suggestion, go out buy a roll of thermo tech and peel and stick it on. No mess or toxic fumes to breathe and will do the task of heat and noise reduction. You can also it inside the top cover piece as well, I should also add the trans tunnel does not get that hot to begin with, nothing in comparison to the firewall area. One other tip, when you install your engine/trans slide the drive shaft in when transmission is coming through the tunnel area. You will have much more space to work with, we did this on a friends build and it was much easier doing it this way then trying to squeeze it in once the transmission is fully pushed in and mounts are installed.

https://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-14...e%2C255&sr=1-5

Thanks for the question Fman. Honestly, I didn't have many compelling reasons. Heat and sound dampening weren't in the list of reasons either due to exactly what you said. I have rolls of sound dampeners waiting to be installed and I'm frankly not worried at all about any heat that can go into the trans tunnel. The decision was made after considering the following:

1. I had relocated many things many times in the trans tunnel. Parking brake, rear harness mounting tabs, parking brake cable brackets, etc. This left a lot of exposed steel surfaces and holes. The aluminum won't rust, but the steel will. Other parts of the body with rusting steel can be taken care of down the road, but not the trans tunnel cuz the trans will be in the way.
   
2. I cut out a huge hole when I needed to cut off the factory default e-brake mounting bracket and it looks horrible. The edge of the hole is in a weird angle such that sanding / grinding down the edge risks damaging the powder-coated frame (in fact I did accidentally scrape off some power-coat), so I never really cleaned that part up. The thick rubbery consistency of flex seal helped cover that up.
   
3. I wanted the whole chassis to look black from the bottom (except the engine bay). I could either use epoxy paint or the rubber sealant. From my own testing the rubber sealant was a lot tougher than the paint.

Unfortunately when I tested the rubber sealant on spare pieces of aluminum I didn't have them standing vertically, so when it dried it looked great. Looking at my pictures above... yeah... it doesn't look great at all due to the drip lines. It looks like a slimy mess.

[facultyofmusic]

... most find it easier to cover the dash first before bending the ends. Not sure what your plans are for the dash face. also, most dashes I've seen just need to be bent it in one plane. looks like you're bending and twisting the ends.

The reason why I haven't covered the dash yet is because I haven't yet decided on the dash layout. I'm still playing around with a bunch of ideas and I just can't seem to decide on any of them! I've already read that how the dash is mounted can affect where to locate certain dash components. In my mind there are 2 phases to working on the dash: Mounting the dash itself, and working on dash contents. Currently I'm on the former one.

As for bending and twisting the ends, I wanted the end of the dash to sit flush with the frame with full contact. I couldn't see how that was possible without employing some upwards twisting bend. Without twisting the end of the dash would stab into the horizontal box tube behind the dash. Twisting the dash also allows the top of the dash to continue from the bend line toward the door hinges at a 45 degree angle just like the body itself, while also allowing the bottom of the dash to twist out of the way.

[egchewy79]

Most pics that I've seen just have one single gentle bend of the dash ends, tucking the very end behind the door hinge. wrapping a prebent dash might be interesting...

[John Ibele]

I think you'll like the stiffeners under the dash, they make for a much sturdier feel. Yours look good but with just a few more bends will be much stiffer. Yours will have a tendency to buckle when the dash is pushed on.

Here's a view of the same basic stiffener, but with some side bends added. To buckle the way your stiffeners will have a tendency to, this side portion would have to either have to collapse in compression, or crack open in tension ... much more force required to do that.



Untitled by John Ibele, on Flickr

I also, like others, did a simple bend at the end of the dash, and so far it looks like it will both look and fit just fine. It rests on the top of the 2x2 frame member, and tucks in behind the door hinge. I think it will look 'right' when the body is on, and the dash disappears under the body as it gets closer to the door. Looked for a picture in my gallery but couldn't fine one. Can take a photo and send tonight if you'd like ... just want to make sure your dash alignment is right, before you're further committed.

Barring any problem there, it looks like you're down the road with the twist and bend approach, and are happy with it; good deal.

[facultyofmusic]

I think you'll like the stiffeners under the dash, they make for a much sturdier feel. Yours look good but with just a few more bends will be much stiffer. Yours will have a tendency to buckle when the dash is pushed on.

Here's a view of the same basic stiffener, but with some side bends added. To buckle the way your stiffeners will have a tendency to, this side portion would have to either have to collapse in compression, or crack open in tension ... much more force required to do that.



Untitled by John Ibele, on Flickr

I also, like others, did a simple bend at the end of the dash, and so far it looks like it will both look and fit just fine. It rests on the top of the 2x2 frame member, and tucks in behind the door hinge. I think it will look 'right' when the body is on, and the dash disappears under the body as it gets closer to the door. Looked for a picture in my gallery but couldn't fine one. Can take a photo and send tonight if you'd like ... just want to make sure your dash alignment is right, before you're further committed.

Barring any problem there, it looks like you're down the road with the twist and bend approach, and are happy with it; good deal.

John that's brilliant! Can't believe I didn't think of that. The FFR provided dash supports are quite flimsy, but bent like that they will indeed be much more rigid.

[facultyofmusic]

A small but exciting update: After throughly checking all fittings and connections, we decided it's time to test the fuel system for real. Doing will will allow me to finally seal up the trunk aluminum panels with confidence. I went to the gas station with my 5 gallon gas tank and filled it up completely. I COMPLETELY underestimated how heavy 5 gallons of fuel was! Lugging it back onto the car wasn't too difficult, but holding it high enough and aiming the nozzle into the filler tube took some sweat. LOL!

With 5 gallons of gas in the tank I jerry-rigged two 1-pin connectors that allows me to power the fuel pump by connecting it to the battery. Plugged it in with great anticipation and viola! 65PSI at the regulator and no leaks to be found! I left the system running for 30mins just so I can make sure there REALLY aren't any leaks. So far so good.
fuel_pressure.jpg

One step closer to that first start!

[John Ibele]

John that's brilliant! Can't believe I didn't think of that. The FFR provided dash supports are quite flimsy, but bent like that they will indeed be much more rigid.

I actually just wanted to give you an excuse to pull out that nifty vise press-brake of yours. Man, I like that thing. Let me know if it works as well as it seems it should.

[facultyofmusic]

It's been one night since I've put gas in the tank. This morning I woke up, walked into the garage, and immediately noticed the smell of gasoline. Looks like the EVAP system of my car isn't doing a bang up job like I thought it would. Just to clarify: While I can smell gas, it's not overwhelming like you'd get with a liquid gas leak. I'm very sure it's gas vapour getting out of the system.

The only places I imagine the smell can come from are the filler neck and vent tube. I've installed the gas cap and secured it using hose clamps. Didn't cut the hose down to size yet because I have no idea how long it needs to be so it's currently hanging by the frame held up by zip ties.
20220302_104350.jpg

The vent tube has a DIY charcoal canister attached to it; the same design used by the greats. It's currently full of charcoal. I wonder if it's too small?
20220302_104255.jpg 20220302_104258.jpg

[JohnK]

The DIY charcoal canister that I build (modeled after Edwardb's) is the same size as yours and seems to work fine at keeping gas odors out of the garage so I don't think the problem is the size of the canister. Start with checking the filler neck seal at the tank. Did you install the one that FFR provides or replace it with the Ford OEM part? The generic ones that FFR provides have been known to tear if you look at them funny.

[facultyofmusic]

The DIY charcoal canister that I build (modeled after Edwardb's) is the same size as yours and seems to work fine at keeping gas odors out of the garage so I don't think the problem is the size of the canister. Start with checking the filler neck seal at the tank. Did you install the one that FFR provides or replace it with the Ford OEM part? The generic ones that FFR provides have been known to tear if you look at them funny.

Thanks for the reassurance on the charcoal canister John. I did swap it out for the ford part. I also stuck my nose as close to the seal as I could and couldn't smell anything.

[David Hodgkins]

I'd check the whole system for moisture, including fuel lines and the top part of the engine. Look under the manifold, for example, and any connections throughout the feed and return lines. also check the seals on the tank itself.

EDIT: I see your post from earlier today. I'd still do a double take, tracing the fuel out to the engine and back again.

Good luck!

[facultyofmusic]

I'd check the whole system for moisture, including fuel lines and the top part of the engine. Look under the manifold, for example, and any connections throughout the feed and return lines. also check the seals on the tank itself.

EDIT: I see your post from earlier today. I'd still do a double take, tracing the fuel out to the engine and back again.

Good luck!

Hey David, can you elaborate on what you meant by "check for moisture"? Additionally, I currently do not have the engine installed. The line that feeds to the engine was replaced by a plug on the pressure regulator. Not sure if that changes anything though.

[edwardb]

I've used the DIY activated charcoal setup on four builds and never had a fuel vapor odor problem. But then again some say they don't use anything and don't have any odor. So take your pick. I doubt that's your problem. Just about anything is fair game. The seal for the filler hose as mentioned. Highly recommend using the Ford OEM part if you didn't. Easy to install now. A pain later. Whether you smell anything there or not. Looks like you have some bracing on the that fill tube. But the tube plus the LeMans cap is maybe a lot of stress on that somewhat fragile tank seal. Other candidates: The fuel pump and gauge sender seals on top of the tank. The filler cap. I assume you're not trusting the LeMans cap to be the only seal. Don't want to be a downer, but I wouldn't have been quite so anxious to put gasoline in the tank this early in the build. Don't know when you expect to install the engine and be ready for first start. But gasoline isn't going to be too fresh by then. Plus I personally don't like to work around gasoline any more than necessary. Maybe at least put some Stabil in the tank?

[facultyofmusic]

I've used the DIY activated charcoal setup on four builds and never had a fuel vapor odor problem. But then again some say they don't use anything and don't have any odor. So take your pick. I doubt that's your problem. Just about anything is fair game. The seal for the filler hose as mentioned. Highly recommend using the Ford OEM part if you didn't. Easy to install now. A pain later. Whether you smell anything there or not. Looks like you have some bracing on the that fill tube. But the tube plus the LeMans cap is maybe a lot of stress on that somewhat fragile tank seal. Other candidates: The fuel pump and gauge sender seals on top of the tank. The filler cap. I assume you're not trusting the LeMans cap to be the only seal. Don't want to be a downer, but I wouldn't have been quite so anxious to put gasoline in the tank this early in the build. Don't know when you expect to install the engine and be ready for first start. But gasoline isn't going to too fresh by then. Plus I personally don't like to work around gasoline any more than necessary. Maybe at least put some Stabil in the tank?

Hi Paul, I've indeed swapped the tanks seal out for the Ford part. The gas cap plus the long hose does weigh quite a bit, so I make sure to support it by pulling it up and minimize the amount of stress on the seal. I have not checked the fuel level sender or the pump seals yet, I'll check those. The goal is to see the engine start up for the first time in mid-April; but Stabil is still call, didn't think of the problem of leaving fuel in the tank for that long.

[facultyofmusic]

I've spent about an hour taking off panels and inspecting the fuel system, checking every possible place where fuel could leak. ...Pump seal, tank seal, gas cap, every fitting, you name it. Unfortunately the only leakage detection equipment I have on me is my stubby sensitive nose and a rather slow-to-refresh air quality monitor that can measure TVOC.

The first issue was the magnitude of the leak. It's just slow enough that if I keep the garage door open while I work on the car I wouldn't smell anything at all. It's just big enough to full my garage with smell of gasoline in a few hours. I couldn't reliable smell it 100% of the time from any particular part on the fuel line. The air quality monitor is also giving mixed results. It's almost as if the leak is literally everywhere along passenger side chassis. I realized the slightest breeze can blow the vapour away from its origin, leaving me chasing thin air.

To combat this, I took a huge fan and cycled the air in the garage until it's 100% fresh air with no trace of gasoline. I then closed all windows and doors to let the air in the garage be as calm as possible. I left it like that for a few hours and went back into the garage with my nose ready and my air monitor in my hands. By the time I got back to the car for inspection, my air quality monitor's readings had already maxed out, so it was useless. I stuck my nose as close as I could to every fitting and fuel system component. There were 2 places where the smell was strongest:
1. The -6AN hose-end fitting between the end of the send-line and the pressure regulator.
2. The -6AN fittings near the send and return nozzles of the pump.

All other places, including the gas cap, the charcoal canister, fuel level sender, the fuel pressure regulator itself, all smell fine. What's weird is that the entire line near the fitting smells like gasoline. Is the gasoline crawling down the stainless steel braided webbing?

The other question I have is how did this happen. I definitely tightened the fittings more than enough. Did I over tighten and then perhaps strip them? I need to figure this all out. Perhaps I should pressure test my new lines before installing them next time.

Regardless, I will need to clear the fuel lines of fuel somehow and swap out some lines. A step backwards, but a necessary one.

[egchewy79]

are you running braided SS or hard lines from the back to the front? did you make your own fittings for your SS lines? also, keep in mind that regular braided SS fuel lines will eventually degrade over time with the ethanol in the gas. PTFE braided SS lines won't. probably not your current problem, but something to consider down the road.

[GWL]

I have been successful using the Scotts 'blue' Shop Towels to located leaks or moisture. Whenever, the blue towels touch moisture, water, gas or hydraulic fluid it turns to a very dark blue indicating wetness. Just touch it to the tubing or a joint and pull it away and it will tell you if it's wet or not.

Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Scott-75180-6...04IUPAPI&psc=1

George

[facultyofmusic]

are you running braided SS or hard lines from the back to the front? did you make your own fittings for your SS lines? also, keep in mind that regular braided SS fuel lines will eventually degrade over time with the ethanol in the gas. PTFE braided SS lines won't. probably not your current problem, but something to consider down the road.

I'm running 80% hard lines and braided stainless steel lines for the remaining 20%. The hard lines go under the chassis and braided lines are only used where line flexibility is required. The route goes like this: pump -> braided line -> filter -> braided line -> hard line -> braided line -> pressure regulator -> braided line -> hard line -> braided line -> tank. Every one of those arrows are 1 or 2 fittings.

[facultyofmusic]

While we're at it, how does one empty out the fuel line? Can I run my pump dry for a second or two to pump all the fuel back into the tank via the return line? Does that even work?

[Fman]

I used this Fragola air tester on all my fuel lines before I charged the fuel system. Works good and is easy to hook up. With EFI I went to 65 psi and as others mentioned you definitely want to run PTFE rated braided lines for long term reliability.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...MaAvOhEALw_wcB

[facultyofmusic]

I used this Fragola air tester on all my fuel lines before I charged the fuel system. Works good and is easy to hook up. With EFI I went to 65 psi and as others mentioned you definitely want to run PTFE rated braided lines for long term reliability.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...MaAvOhEALw_wcB

Thanks Fman, I just ordered it. Should be here soon.

[facultyofmusic]

The fuel line debacle is finally over! It's been 2 days since the new lines were installed. No smell of gasoline in the garage at all! Woohoo!

One week earlier:

I was real confused because why the fuel leak seemed to come from everywhere. Everywhere along the braided lines I sniffed was a super strong smell of gasoline. I bought an organic vapour sniffer device to help me diagnose what's happening. Sure enough, everywhere along the line I pointed, the sniffer showed extremely high readings. I made a separate thread here that specifically goes over my discoveries and the conclusions with the help of folks from the forum. Long story short: The fuel lines I used weren't designed to handle gasoline with any ethanol content. The rubber was letting gas evapourate through the tubing. That's why there were gasoline vapours leaking out at every surface of every braided line. Yeah, I know, I didn't think that was possible either. TBH I'm still not 100% sure if that's the true cause, but at this point I've passed the point of further investigation. I just want my garage to stop smelling like a gas station.
tester.jpg vapour_detection.jpg

The solution, then, was to swap out the lines with "proper" ones that can handle modern civilian gasoline. There are a few choices available. I decided on Fragola's PTFE core stainless steel braided lines (Fragola Part No. 601026) paired with Fragola's PTFE fuel line fittings (Fragola's "Real Street Hose Ends"). They had high reviews and weren't outrageously expensive.

I'm going to refrain from giving instructions or posting pictures on installing PTFE fittings. I'm not good at it. I actually stripped / cross threaded my first one. Go watch a few youtube videos of pros doing it instead! LOL. A few tips I learned that really helped me install them correctly are:

• Use a bit of grease on the threads and mating surface to prevent stripping/galling.
• Push the olive/ferrule into the fitting a little to expose some threads for the upper portion to thread in. It makes cross-threading nearly impossible.
• The fittings add about half-inch to each side of the fuel line. Take that into account when you cut the lines.

I then pressure tested the lines using Earl's 6AN pressure tester kit. There was a bit of discussion on the thread linked above on how much pressure to apply during pressure test. Some said 500PSI, some said 125PSI. 500PSI made no sense to me (but what do I know...). John explained that pressure testing at twice the operating pressure was more than enough to expose any improperly installed fittings. I had a Ryobi tire-inflater that pumped up to 180PSI, and that sounded about right to me.
pressure_test1.jpg pressure_test2.jpg pressure_test3.jpg pressure_test4.jpg

The lines all passed the test spectacularly. Something I realized during test was just how little amount of torque is needed for AN fittings to seal. I didn't tighten the fitting much at all and at 180PSI there was zero leakage. Pretty magical.

The lines were ready, so now it's time to swap them in. Unfortunately I had already installed the trunk aluminum panel that goes right on top of the fuel pump. The panel itself has a hole for fuel pump accessibility, but it wasn't nearly big enough to reach the AN fittings that extend toward the side. I decided this was a good chance to expand the hole to a size that made more sense for my build. I decided to expand it downwards a bit too to house any tail-light electrical assemblies I may need in the future.
enlarged_hole1.jpg

With a fire extinguisher ready at my side and a crap ton of shop towels I removed the old lines. I was especially careful to not spill any gasoline anywhere. It's still just spring time, but it's been terribly dry these days. I can't guarantee a spark won't rub out from this dryness. Fortunately nothing bad happened and the new lines were fitted without hassle. It was midnight when we finally powered on the fuel pump to test the new lines. Finally! No leak! No smell! I can finally sleep at night. LOL.

swapped_lines.jpg

And that's a wrap!

[zee]

Beautiful work!

[facultyofmusic]

Been thinking about what else I should do before dropping the engine in for good. Looking through the pictures so far, I realized that I don't have an alternator fuse, nor do I have a battery main power fuse. I know that my daily driver has both of those so I started reading some past threads on this topic. The result of which made me want both.

On a past thread on alternator fuses I read about a manually resettable fuse. Del City has a bunch of these in different variations in stock. This surface mounted one looks real nice. As for the amperage, the alternator on the Gen 3 coyote is rated for 175A. Paul's post here explains that a 150A fuse should be more than enough for anything we normally need from the alternator (for coyote build), so I'll go with the 150A breaker from DC.

The main battery fuse I'm less sure about. While there are threads like this one and this one that recommends it for additional protection against extremely unfortunate circumstances, it also doesn't seem to be a common practice. Paul's post here makes a good point that a single point of failure in the whole system can be an issue in and of itself. More over, I'm also not sure about the amperage rating I'd go for if I do install one. I've seen posts that say 200A and some that say 500A.

[edwardb]

Been thinking about what else I should do before dropping the engine in for good. Looking through the pictures so far, I realized that I don't have an alternator fuse, nor do I have a battery main power fuse. I know that my daily driver has both of those...

Can't add much beyond my previous post that you linked regarding a fuse on the main power feed. But I challenge you to find such a fuse on your daily driver. I remain with my opinion that is to focus on a rock solid installation (like our DD engineer friends) and don't introduce a single point of failure. The safety aspect of that can't be overlooked.

[BrewCityCobra]

Been thinking about what else I should do before dropping the engine in for good. Looking through the pictures so far, I realized that I don't have an alternator fuse, nor do I have a battery main power fuse. I know that my daily driver has both of those so I started reading some past threads on this topic. The result of which made me want both.

On a past thread on alternator fuses I read about a manually resettable fuse. Del City has a bunch of these in different variations in stock. This surface mounted one looks real nice. As for the amperage, the alternator on the Gen 3 coyote is rated for 175A. Paul's post here explains that a 150A fuse should be more than enough for anything we normally need from the alternator (for coyote build), so I'll go with the 150A breaker from DC.

The main battery fuse I'm less sure about. While there are threads like this one and this one that recommends it for additional protection against extremely unfortunate circumstances, it also doesn't seem to be a common practice. Paul's post here makes a good point that a single point of failure in the whole system can be an issue in and of itself. More over, I'm also not sure about the amperage rating I'd go for if I do install one. I've seen posts that say 200A and some that say 500A.

So I just recently went through this exact same mental exercise a few weeks ago. I was really torn on whether to add a "Main Battery" fuse/circuit breaker.

In the end, I decided against the battery fuse for a coupled reasons 1) it seems to be very uncommon - which to me means people who know more about this than me decided it didn't need to be there and likely only added a point of failure for not much help, and 2) all that fuse would really protect is the primary wire going from the battery to the starter, everything downstream of that is going to be a much smaller wire size and therefore would likely burn up before a big 500A fuse would blow anyways.

In the end I tried to keep all wires upstream of the fuse box a bit larger than needed just for extra safety but did not add any fusees or circuit breakers aside from the one on the alternator feed - which I used a Del City 200A resettable circuit breaker like you described (I have a 160 Amp alternator). I went with 200A and 6AWG wire for the alternator circuit as that is the size that comes in the Painless Ultra High output (up to 190 Amp) alternator kit. I figure if those specs are good enough for the professionals at Painless they are good enough for me.

In the end I went with the circuit as diagramed/sized below.

batterycircuit.png

[facultyofmusic]

So I just recently went through this exact same mental exercise a few weeks ago. I was really torn on whether to add a "Main Battery" fuse/circuit breaker.

In the end, I decided against the battery fuse for a coupled reasons 1) it seems to be very uncommon - which to me means people who know more about this than me decided it didn't need to be there and likely only added a point of failure for not much help, and 2) all that fuse would really protect is the primary wire going from the battery to the starter, everything downstream of that is going to be a much smaller wire size and therefore would likely burn up before a big 500A fuse would blow anyways.

In the end I tried to keep all wires upstream of the fuse box a bit larger than needed just for extra safety but did not add any fusees or circuit breakers aside from the one on the alternator feed - which I used a Del City 200A resettable circuit breaker like you described (I have a 160 Amp alternator). I went with 200A and 6AWG wire for the alternator circuit as that is the size that comes in the Painless Ultra High output (up to 190 Amp) alternator kit. I figure if those specs are good enough for the professionals at Painless they are good enough for me.

In the end I went with the circuit as diagramed/sized below.

batterycircuit.png

The limited protection the fuse offers is a great point. It's true that the only thing a battery fuse really protects is the starter and perhaps the alternator. The cost and complexity outweighs the benefits here.

I'll just go with a 150A alternator fuse and do a good job ensuring there's no cable rubbing or any exposed points.

Thanks all!

[Hoooper]

I hate to disappoint the idea that modern cars dont have main fuses on the battery but its actually pretty common to have main fuse(s) on the battery on a new car. There is typically a small distribution box on the battery or right by the battery which has just the big fuses (75A, 175A, etc.) which feed the main power to starter, BCMs, downstream fuse panels, etc. Of my two dailys, one has 6 large fuses (300A, 250A, (4) 100A) and the other has four fuses (175A, 70A, 70A, 30A). It doesnt really protect your starter and alternator, what it protects is your car from burning down in case of a short on the big wire.

2OIIYUml.jpg

[facultyofmusic]

I hate to disappoint the idea that modern cars dont have main fuses on the battery but its actually pretty common to have main fuse(s) on the battery on a new car. There is typically a small distribution box on the battery or right by the battery which has just the big fuses (75A, 175A, etc.) which feed the main power to starter, BCMs, downstream fuse panels, etc. Of my two dailys, one has 6 large fuses (300A, 250A, (4) 100A) and the other has four fuses (175A, 70A, 70A, 30A). It doesnt really protect your starter and alternator, what it protects is your car from burning down in case of a short on the big wire.

2OIIYUml.jpg

Right, I can confirm that on my car it's integrated into the battery post as well. I suppose the point here is that these cars are dead simple compared to modern automobiles and the best method of prevention is to make it bullet proof in the first place. Anything connected via small wires should first go through the RF harness, and aside from that the only other big things are the alternator and the starter. With a fuse on the alternator, all I have left is the starter. TBH I still kinda want to add a fuse to the battery terminal simply because I'm terrified of those battery-leak and shortage horror stories, but that fuse can be added in later. The alternator fuse's location is at the firewall and much harder to work on after the engine is in, so I'll do that first.

[edwardb]

Well, I stand corrected on what's on some (all?) modern DD's. Not the first or last time. Those are clearly sophisticated systems and doesn't change my mind on what's appropriate for our much simpler setups, e.g. a rock solid and oversize as necessary (I use 2 gauge AWG battery cable) to the starter and main power feed. Everything downstream from there is protected through the fuse panel. Not to change the subject, and I realize this is clearly anecdotal, but in the 10+ years I've been on this and the other forum, there have been several instances cited of vehicle fires on these builds. They were fuel related, e.g. leaky or failed connections, etc. Something to consider as it relates to risk.

[BrewCityCobra]

I hate to disappoint the idea that modern cars dont have main fuses on the battery but its actually pretty common to have main fuse(s) on the battery on a new car. There is typically a small distribution box on the battery or right by the battery which has just the big fuses (75A, 175A, etc.) which feed the main power to starter, BCMs, downstream fuse panels, etc. Of my two dailys, one has 6 large fuses (300A, 250A, (4) 100A) and the other has four fuses (175A, 70A, 70A, 30A). It doesnt really protect your starter and alternator, what it protects is your car from burning down in case of a short on the big wire.

2OIIYUml.jpg

I suppose I should have clarified "in our types of cars and other classics." But this is still a good point of reference and appreciate you pointing it out.

That said, I think this photo also shows how far you need to go for 100% protection and why it probably isn't worth the added complexity for our types of cars. The right way to do it is to have a huge fuse on the starter feed only, and a plurality of smaller parallel fuses, all located as close to the battery as possible, to protect the secondary power feed wires to make sure everything is protected per its size rating (as is shown in your photo). Having one big 500A fuse on the terminal, like I said earlier, will only protect you if your 2AWG wire grounds out but that is about it. The 10AWG wire extending from the starter terminal to the fuse box will still fry if it is compromised in that type of situation.

Appreciate the update.

[facultyofmusic]

Thanks for the advices guys. This has helped me realize how much more attention I need to pay to the electrical system of my build. So far I've kinda just "connected" everything, but haven't given thought on long-term maintenance and accessibility. Having thought about the electricals more carefully I realized that I actually don't have a reverse-light wired LOL. I also saw BrewCityCobra's post that showed extra aux and USB plugs in the trunk so now I'm inspired to include that in my build too.

For the reverse-light I plan to add an extra wire in the rear harness that exposes a pigtail that connects to the reverse-light switch of the T56 magnum. I'd also like to run a batt-cutoff controlled line to the trunk, where it can power a small fuse box for future expandability such as USB chargers and additional lights. After reading a few posts on LED lights, I decided to purchase the Breeze LED external light conversion kit. They are (according to others) a direct swap with existing components so there shouldn't be any complications there.

Unfortunately this means the engine drop-in date has once again been delayed, but it's worth it getting these things right before the engine goes in.

[Hoooper]

I suppose I should have clarified "in our types of cars and other classics." But this is still a good point of reference and appreciate you pointing it out.

That said, I think this photo also shows how far you need to go for 100% protection and why it probably isn't worth the added complexity for our types of cars. The right way to do it is to have a huge fuse on the starter feed only, and a plurality of smaller parallel fuses, all located as close to the battery as possible, to protect the secondary power feed wires to make sure everything is protected per its size rating (as is shown in your photo). Having one big 500A fuse on the terminal, like I said earlier, will only protect you if your 2AWG wire grounds out but that is about it. The 10AWG wire extending from the starter terminal to the fuse box will still fry if it is compromised in that type of situation.

Appreciate the update.

How many individual wires do you have running from the battery? I only have a single wire off the battery so in mine a single large fuse (250A) protects the main 2ga power feed to the disconnect switch, which then as a result also protects the 2ga feed from there to to my power distribution unit, 2ga feed to starter, and 4ga feed to alternator. All smaller wires are then protected by the PDU

[facultyofmusic]

There are 2 things I need to add to the rear harness: Reverse Lamp and Reverse-Lockout Module Power. Both of these are just 12V DC connected to BATT-CUTOFF. Luckily the rear harness as these 2 "speed sensor" wires that aren't needed with the GPS speedo. I can use one of these wires to provide 12V DC to both the reverse lockout module as well as the reverse-light pigtail. This leaves one more wire unused. I'm going to run this wire all the way to the rear as an extra dash-controlled 12V DC power to power something else in the future.

I haven't figured out what I'm going to do for the actual reverse-light itself as I'm still trying to figure out all this LED lighting what not. I have purchased the breeze exterior LED light kit that directly replaces the stock lights. For backup lights, I think a strip of white LED around the license plate or under the bumper would be kool. The original cobras don't have backup lights, so I don't want to awkwardly add a third bulb next to the existing light module. No idea if this idea will pass California DOT inspection though.

Another question on my mind is whether or not after-market molex connectors are good enough for dashboard electronics. The gauges and indicator lamps shouldn't draw much power at all, but the accessory plug as well as USB charging ports can draw quite a bit of current. The molex connector pins have a relatively small contact surface. I wonder if I should get bigger connectors for high-power dash components.

[edwardb]

There are 2 things I need to add to the rear harness: Reverse Lamp and Reverse-Lockout Module Power. Both of these are just 12V DC connected to BATT-CUTOFF. Luckily the rear harness as these 2 "speed sensor" wires that aren't needed with the GPS speedo. I can use one of these wires to provide 12V DC to both the reverse lockout module as well as the reverse-light pigtail. This leaves one more wire unused. I'm going to run this wire all the way to the rear as an extra dash-controlled 12V DC power to power something else in the future.

I haven't figured out what I'm going to do for the actual reverse-light itself as I'm still trying to figure out all this LED lighting what not. I have purchased the breeze exterior LED light kit that directly replaces the stock lights. For backup lights, I think a strip of white LED around the license plate or under the bumper would be kool. The original cobras don't have backup lights, so I don't want to awkwardly add a third bulb next to the existing light module. No idea if this idea will pass California DOT inspection though.

Another question on my mind is whether or not after-market molex connectors are good enough for dashboard electronics. The gauges and indicator lamps shouldn't draw much power at all, but the accessory plug as well as USB charging ports can draw quite a bit of current. The molex connector pins have a relatively small contact surface. I wonder if I should get bigger connectors for high-power dash components.

A bit confused by this. If you're using the reverse lockout module with your T56 (American Powertrain ELUN-10013?) it requires both RF harness wires from the VSS on the transmission. It's easy enough to add a single wire to the entire rear harness for the backup lights. Through the backup lamp connection on the T56 and to the rear connections. You need to get switched +12V to both the module and the backup lights. Not always on battery power if that's what you meant by BATT-CUTOFF. Wouldn't hurt necessarily to have the backup lights on a battery connection, but typically they're on a switched connection. The module for sure you don't want on a battery connection. It would probably draw down your battery if left on.

There are a lot of different Molex connectors. So hard to answer your question. Personally, I'm a fan of Weatherpack connectors. You'll probably be using them on your build anyway because they're perfect for your exterior lights and most builders recommend them there. With the right crimper (basic one is not expensive) they are super easy to assemble. Widely available in multiple pin configurations and not too expensive. Available from a couple forum vendors, Summit, Amazon, DelCity.net, recently used https://www.customconnectorkits.com/ who had a wide variety and gave good service. Also weatherproof (obviously...) which the garden variety Molex isn't. The standard Weatherpack with round pins is rated for up to 20 amps. Fine for anything on the dash including your typical aux ports.