Real Life Broomstick Test

[C.Plavan]

Spec Miata doing what Spec Miata does best

[Mitch Wright]

Close racing???

[C.Plavan]

Close racing???

Spec Piñata- there is close racing, and smash racing.

[Mitch Wright]

That has not been the case in the 4 MX5 cup races I have done in the last few years. Yes there is contact but that is the case with spec classes I have run going back to Renault Cup, Spec Racer, VW Cup even Formula Ford and S2000 in there hay day and yes the hand full of Spec Miata races I have done. Big fields (in many cases 1 second covered the top 20) makes for close racing, bump drafting and a lot of wheel to wheel action. So yes by the spec nature of these classes you will have more contact but with that drivers coming out of these spec classes know how to race. I consider these classes to be excellent training grounds, how can they not be, 30-60 car grids teach a driver to truly race on the edge from start to finish, strategy and racecraft. I can also say to drive/race any of the cars I mentioned at the pointy end of the field is difficult, much harder than the 650hp Trans Am cars I drove years ago. You may only be going 100mph but I will tell you those spec classes have been the most intense racing I have ever done and most satisfying when you have a good result. JMO
Chad have you ever raced one?

[Sgt.Gator]

This video highlights that at a track like Mazda Laguna Seca with gravel traps when you are rolling over, and when you end up on your top, the roll bar will be buried down at least a couple of inches in the gravel or possibly more, so you better have even more than the bare minimum of space for the RLBT. And on a single roll bar system like our 818 that's even worse.

[C.Plavan]

This video highlights that at a track like Mazda Laguna Seca with gravel traps when you are rolling over, and when you end up on your top, the roll bar will be buried down at least a couple of inches in the gravel or possibly more, so you better have even more than the bare minimum of space for the RLBT. And on a single roll bar system like our 818 that's even worse.

Yeah- Never really felt safe in the 818R in W2W racing- If I kept it, I would of made a real cage. The Corvettes and other cars I raced against were HUGE.

[RetroRacing]

Ya, a roll over would suck, but I'm used to the open concept having driven both my Datsun Roadster and a Caterham wheel to wheel. Crashing in an old RX7 at 150mpg would probably suck worse, all about perspective

[Sgt.Gator]

I've updated my build thread with my Halo Cage for Tall Boys solution: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post310926

[Sgt.Gator]

Apparently, Apexlife doesn't have a broomstick test:

From: https://www.rcnmag.com/d-i-y/carbon-...ampaign=180418

[Sgt.Gator]

NASA doesn't have a specific broomstick test in their rules (at least that I can find), but I just noticed this is now on their Race / TT Car Annual Inspector's Form:
Under Roll Cage checkboxes:

__ Broomstick test - open cars.

So now NASA matches the SCCA.

[Mulry]

NASA doesn't have a specific broomstick test in their rules (at least that I can find), but I just noticed this is now on their Race / TT Car Annual Inspector's Form:
Under Roll Cage checkboxes:

__ Broomstick test - open cars.

So now NASA matches the SCCA.

Thanks for noting that. We'll be adding a halo cage too, probably not as artistically as yours

Here's the link to the 2019 form for others in this situation:

https://www.nasaproracing.com/forms/...ector_form.pdf

[Dave 53]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?broom stick lines.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?

My roll bar is 5" taller than 818S bar. It is higher than the 818r bar, but I don't know by how much. My son in this picture is 6'3" in a kirkey seat-mounted directly to the floor.
In the second picture, you can see an extra bump was added to the 818r. I believe so Dave Smith could drive it.

rb.jpg rb2.jpg

Sorry about the dirty car. This was the second day of a track day weekend.

[Sgt.Gator]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?broom stick lines.jpg

Tony posted this info in an old thread when were trying to figure out how to fit and pass the tests. This is from his 818R:
Floor to top of rear roll cage bar 818R=41".

If you need from the top of the rear firewall cross bar to the top of the bar I can get that for you later today.

[Sgt.Gator]

Probably a good time to update this old thread.
In looking at the latest NASA Annual HPDE /TIME TRIAL TECHNICAL INSPECTION FORM: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com..._tech_form.pdf
It doesn't say anything about a broomstick test, just roll bars in open cars check box. There is a reference to this page: https://community.drivenasa.com/topi...-trial-groups/
If your vehicle is not on the list, provide FACTORY documentation stating that YOUR make and model has rollover protection. If it was an option (e.g. pop-up) roll bars, then you need to prove your car has these. Submit the documentation to your Regional Director or send it to [email protected].
Submitting documentation other than from the manufacturer will be ignored. Acceptable documentation:
Factory-produced sales brochures and websites (a link may be sent).
Letters or emails from an employee of the factory. Must be on letterhead or use the manufacturer’s domain. The letter must state very specifically, that the vehicle does have rollover protection.

The 2021 NASA RACE / TT CAR ANNUAL INSPECTOR’S FORM: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...n_form_3.1.pdf
It no longer has a reference to open top cars and the broomstick test. Just the regular cage requirements. So looking at the actual rules for cage requirements: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...2/2021.8.3.pdf
I find no mention of open top cars or height of the roll bar above the helmet.

ICSCC racing: The top of the main hoop shall not be more than six inches behind and not less than one inch above the top of the driver’s helmet when he/she is in a normal driving position. No mention of the broomstick test.

SCCA Track Nights (HPDE). I can't find their rules, they are probably track specific.
SCCA Racing 2021: https://www.scca.com/downloads/56589-gcr-june
The main hoop must be high enough that a straight line drawn from the top of the main hoop to the top of the front hoop would pass over the driver’s helmet and steering wheel when the driver is seated in the normal driving position. Additionally, the top of the main hoop must be at least 2 inches above the driver’s helmet as illustrated in figure 10.

And I posted this in another build thread recently:
Most tracks have a broomstick test for open top cars. Also depending on the organization hosting the event they may have their own broomstick test. Enforcement of the rule varies greatly. Be sure to check both the track and the organization's rules about convertible top cars. So asap have the tallest driver sit in the car with a helmet on and do the broomstick test. Compare the results to the requirements.
You don't want to go all the way to the track to be told to go home because you don't pass their requirements. Do a google search for HPDE Convertible Rules and you will find how different they can be!

Example, HPDE at NCCAR with the Tidewater Sports Car Club:
"All convertible/open top vehicles must be able to pass the broomstick test. The broomstick test involves laying a wooden dowel/broomstick/etc across the windshield frame and the roll bar with the driver seated in their normal position and wearing their helmet. The driver must have 2in of clearance between the dowel and their helmet. NOTE: If you have a non-production-based vehicle/kit car and cannot prove that the windshield frame is a structural item (letter from the manufacturer stating so), the broomstick test will be performed to the front shock tower/structural chassis point instead of the windshield frame."

My Note: If they require 2" above the helmet for kit cars like our 818 running from the roll bar to front shock tower/structural chassis point there is no 818 that will pass that test unless the driver is 4' tall.

Example BMW Car Club Boston: "Convertibles: have a retractable top, whether soft-top or folding hard-top. Convertibles additionally require:
1. An approved roll bar or roll cage where both driver and instructor sitting up right with helmets are below the top of the roll bar.
2. A 5- or more point harnesses for both driver and instructor, with belts properly routed.
3. Arm restraints."

Example: Lime Rock Driver's Club: "For members and guests protection, The Club does not allow convertibles without rollover protection to participate on-track. Factory fitted rollover systems including pop-up systems, such as those on the M3 convertible, Mini Cooper, Boxster, Carrera TT, S2000, Audi TT, 350Z, Z4, Z8, etc are allowed. All factory fitted systems must meet the “broom handle test” which measures whether the head, and helmet fit below a line formed from the top of the rollover bar to the top of the dashboard. For convertibles without factory rollover protection, a four point, structural roll bar that meets SCCA GCR guidelines for Solo 1 is mandatory."


And separate from whatever the track or organizational rules say, my personal opinion is you have to pass the broomstick test period. To perform the broomstick test have the tallest driver sit in the car in driving position. Lay one end of a "broomstick" on the roll bar, the other end on the top of the steel dash hoop. If the stick contacts the driver's helmet it's a fail.

Note, the following rule usually is not applied to HPDE but is a very good idea:
Arm Restraints. SFI or FIA-certified arm restraints are required and must be utilized in all open-cockpit cars including formula cars, and sedans with open targa tops, sunroofs, or T-tops.

[narly1]

Apologies in advance for hijacking this thread.

Just wondering if/how one should/would apply the broomstick test to a FFR33 Hot rod that will never be tracked?

Thinking dash-top (vs top of the windshield frame) to the roll bar is the correct way to do it.

[Dave 53]

Floor to top of rear roll cage bar 818R=41".

On my S, I'm getting from the top of the X brace to the top of the roll bar = 39" An R roll bar is only 2" taller that an S? Looks like more in pictures. By my calculations with my seats (which are tall and comfortable) and my 5' 11" body, I need to go 8" taller than the S height. I'm just curious how my 8" calculation stacks up to an R.

My goal is to HPDE and autocross my 818S. I use to (20 years ago) HPDE my BMW M Roadster which had roll hoops about as tall as my 818S roll bar. Not all HPDE allowed it, but many did. Back then, I never gave the safety (or lack of) any thought. We talked about what we called "the swing set" roll bar, but the conversation was around getting accepted at more events, not about actually being safer! Guess I did a lot of things back in the day that I don't care to do now.

This idea just came to me... What about bolt in roll bars? I've got a design in my head to weld in flanges with 2 roll bars that can be swapped out. I searched Miata and 911 convertible and many bolt in roll bar systems are available and I assume accepted and safe at HPDE track days. I'm thinking stock S short roll bar and uncut S engine cover that can easily be swapped out for a tall track roll bar. The track roll bar would need an R (cut out) engine cover - or no engine cover. Any thoughts on doing a track day without an engine cover?

[NAZ]

You guys that run an open cockpit with only a single rear bar are really exposed. Most tracks have dirt or grass adjacent to the racing surface so when looking at a broomstick test think about that single roll bar sinking into soft ground. And all the other hazards that come at you when your inverted that a single roll bar won't effectively prevent you from contacting. I've survived rollovers and can tell you that these things happen fast. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHhSTGVUeBY

[taco20]

Hey I wanted to add into what Sgt Gator posted.

Tidewater Sports car club changed their run because of me. I signed up for one up for their events and then they said no once I got there because our windshield is not structural.

Now I have run at the same track with a different group and had no issues. I have also run at VIR, Summit Point, and Dominion Raceway with no issues. With my cushion in my seat I don’t believe I pass a broom stick test but without the cushion I am border line. I even met with Tidewater’s inspectors at another track and they said even without the cushion it was to close for their rules.

So most tracks in my area go by NASA rules which doesn’t state a broom stick rule for HPDE events but must have a role bar in place. I normally email the club with pics of the car before signing up for an event to be sure I will be ok when I get there.

I am 5’10” and my Sparco is as low as I can get it with a lean back to help me stay below the bar with my helmet on.

[Sgt.Gator]

NAZ: "Things happen fast"
This is my home track where I instruct. Fortunately HPDE drivers are a little more cautious and are required to wait for a point by. Here's why:

[fletch]

What the hey?!???

[driveslikejehu]

Now I'm getting nervous...
I just got my kit/donor; it's an R as I plan to do mostly track days, not a lot of street driving. I rarely see any wrecks at track days, but it does happen. Saw a rollover this year at VIR. I'll try to link to video below (sorry for the quality)
But with the R, how do you egress; with that diagonal bar? And maybe fire?
I really don't want the hassle and expense of a larger roll cage...

818r prof.jpg

[Hobby Racer]

... But with the R, how do you egress; with that diagonal bar? And maybe fire?
I really don't want the hassle and expense of a larger roll cage...

Yeah, I don't think there is a way to exit in a rollover if the nose is pointed down. It has given me pause more than once. I know you don't want the hassle and expense of a full halo cage, but if it bothers you that much I think its your only option.

There a a few here that have done a nice job adding a full halo to the 818R.

[Sgt.Gator]

I used to track a C6 Z06 at ORP. If you had told me 5 years ago that my Z06 could rollover and entirely crush in on the passenger side I would not have believed it. The Z06 has a factory oem roll hoop builtin that they claim exceeds the industry standard roll over protection by several times.

Looking at this pic of a C7 Z06 you'd think he must have been going 120+ mph. Nope, it lost control a little over 70 mph, probably by the time it actually rolled it was probably about 65mph.

There was a passenger in there, not an instructor, a friend. Luckily he was wearing the 3 point oem belt so he could bend over to the inside and avoid being crushed. His helmet took a a pretty good hit from the roof coming down on him, it's in the linked YouTube video.

This is why I won't instruct in a car that has race seats, 4-5-or 6 pt harness, but no roll cage or at least a stout roll bar. Harness bars don't count. The dirt at ORP is very similar to Willow Springs. It's soft and if you go off track sideways the wheels dig in and flip you.
And I won't instruct in a standard built 818C, R, or S. I'm too tall.



The Video:

[Dave 53]

Glad to see they walked away.

After asking a few questions on this thread, this is the roll bar system I ended up with.front roll bar.jpgroll bar 2.jpgthill 3-20-22.jpg

Front roll bar with tow eye, rear roll bar and rear tow eye, $900 from http://evilgeniusracing.com/

[egchewy79]

whoa...scary stuff. pucker factory definitely high watching that video. glad everyone was ok.