460.465USMC's MK4 Build #9890 - Gel Red is Rad. Blue is Better!

[Ted G]

Looking great!!

[460.465USMC]

How do you find out if your new radiator leaks? Simple: "Just add coolant", so sayeth Captain Obvious.

Two steps forward: one step back. Ugh! After filling the cooling system on Saturday, I've been spot checking for leaks. Sure enough, I found one. A very slow leak is coming from the area where the lower radiator hose connects to the radiator. There is a small recess just above the black arrow in the picture below which seems to be the source, or very close to the leak source. This connection is clamped with a Gates Powergrip clamp. Upon seeing the leak I added a worm drive clamp over the Gates clamp to confirm whether it was a failed (or poorly installed) Gates clamp. No change. Leak is still there.




What to do? I can cut off the Powergrip clamps on the upper and lower radiator hose connections, and remove the rest of the connections and Moroso tank. Take the radiator to a radiator shop and have it leak tested, and potentially have the pin hole welded. That, of course, is a very viable option. However, given the location of the leak, I'm wondering if a dab of JB Weld might not be a viable solution as well?

Are there any concerns using JB Weld as a long-term solution in this case? I would put a layer of it within the red polygon area in the picture above.

[Jim Frahm]

For piece of mind I’d go with option 1. JB Weld is an emergency fix IMHO.

[edwardb]

Came with your kit from Factory Five, right? I'd be contacting them. Either to replace it or reimburse you to repair it. I also vote for welding as a permanent fix if it comes to that.

[460.465USMC]

For piece of mind I’d go with option 1. JB Weld is an emergency fix IMHO.

Thanks, Jim. When I read your recommendation it made me think of the benefit of having it tested to ensure there are no additional leaks that haven't surfaced yet because (1) the system hasn't been pressurized, or (2) come up to operating temperature.

Came with your kit from Factory Five, right? I'd be contacting them. Either to replace it or reimburse you to repair it. I also vote for welding as a permanent fix if it comes to that.

Hi Paul. Yes, this is the original radiator that came with my F5 kit. I sent them an email this afternoon. I assume they'll vote for me to have it repaired locally, and then either reimburse or credit me (hopefully). Either option would be fine with me. Since I have X2 votes on getting it welded, it seems this is the best choice. As Jim mentioned, it will provide peace of mind knowing this leak (and any others!) are repaired, and pressure tested to prove it's now leak free. Thanks for your input.

[facultyofmusic]

For ~$80 you can get a pretty comprehensive radiator pressure testing kit. It comes with a bunch of different caps and I actually used it to help me bleed my clutch. If the radiator shop / welding shop won't pressure testing it for you afterwards you can totally do it yourself. Still man, that sucks. F5 should absolutely reimburse you for this. Please keep us updated as to how the conversation goes.

[NYMike]

How do you find out if your new radiator leaks? Simple: "Just add coolant", so sayeth Captain Obvious.

Two steps forward: one step back. Ugh! After filling the cooling system on Saturday, I've been spot checking for leaks. Sure enough, I found one. A very slow leak is coming from the area where the lower radiator hose connects to the radiator. There is a small recess just above the black arrow in the picture below which seems to be the source, or very close to the leak source. This connection is clamped with a Gates Powergrip clamp. Upon seeing the leak I added a worm drive clamp over the Gates clamp to confirm whether it was a failed (or poorly installed) Gates clamp. No change. Leak is still there.




What to do? I can cut off the Powergrip clamps on the upper and lower radiator hose connections, and remove the rest of the connections and Moroso tank. Take the radiator to a radiator shop and have it leak tested, and potentially have the pin hole welded. That, of course, is a very viable option. However, given the location of the leak, I'm wondering if a dab of JB Weld might not be a viable solution as well?

Are there any concerns using JB Weld as a long-term solution in this case? I would put a layer of it within the red polygon area in the picture above.

That sucks Chris. Unfortunately we had the exact same problem in the same spot with ours. We ended up having ours welded locally by a radiator shop and factory five credited us for the repair on our account. We used the credit to buy some floor mats. Must have been a quality problem with that vendor.

[460.465USMC]

Update: emails exchanged with Dan G. at F5, and they are going to ship out a replacement radiator today. Much appreciate the solid support on this one, F5!

[Blitzboy54]

That sucks Chris. Unfortunately we had the exact same problem in the same spot with ours. We ended up having ours welded locally by a radiator shop and factory five credited us for the repair on our account. We used the credit to buy some floor mats. Must have been a quality problem with that vendor.

Yup, I tested mine before I installed it specifically because of Mike's experience.

[Blitzboy54]

Update: emails exchanged with Dan G. at F5, and they are going to ship out a replacement radiator today. Much appreciate the solid support on this one, F5!

Big win my friend

[460.465USMC]

Yup, I tested mine before I installed it specifically because of Mike's experience.

After reading about Mike's experience, I did a visual inspection of mine with a flashlight, and didn't see any holes. Granted, the hole in mine must be quite small, because the volume of coolant escaping is very little, measurable in droplets. I did put some JB Weld in that area a couple days ago, refilled with coolant, and no leaks so far. (Not to worry, Jim F., this is only to get me through until my replacement radiator arrives ).

Jesse, did you pressure test yours using a DIY kit like Dan (facultyofmusic) describes above?

[460.465USMC]

It's been 1 year, 7 months, and 9 days since delivery. And, yesterday I got to hear my Gen 3 Coyote howl for the first time! More on that in a second.

I mentioned earlier I received my Gas-N side exhaust, so it was time to get them installed. Just temporarily to get me through go-kart phase. It's a lot of weight to put on the ball flange. So, I decided to support the rear portion of the pipe. I used some 5/16" bolts I had on hand, and some washers to clamp a piece of wire. This won't prevent side-to-side movement, but it definitely relieves some torque on the ball flange connection.

Side exhaust in place: a beautiful sight!




Temporary wire hanger connects between door hinge mount and exhaust mounting tab.




Final prep for first start
(1) To minimize the number of gotchas at First Start I primed the fuel lines (at least I tried to) ahead of time by injecting power with my Power Probe III at the output of the fuel relay in the RF fuse panel (i.e. bypassing PCM 12V fuel control). I removed the relay to isolate from the PCM fuel control wire (green). The fuel pump ran and brought up the pressure to about 25 PSI, but didn't seem to want to move past that. Not sure how much power the fuel pump requires (15 Amp fuse in RF fuse panel), so I wondered if it was caused by the voltage drop due to the long Power Probe cord. Anyway, that's about as high as I could get it with my Power Probe. It sat overnight and only dropped a couple PSI. Leak-free fuel lines were looking like a reality, which is a huge relief given what happened with my Supply side fuel line testing.

(2) I'm using the Digital Guard Dawg ignition, which has an input for the brake switch, i.e. it won't send the start signal until it detects closure of the brake switch. I had to temp adjust spacing so the switch would close when I pressed the brake pedal. (I haven't done any adjustment yet on the Wilwood pedals.)

From there it was on to a blissful, trouble-free First Start! Not exactly. If you look up anticlimactic in the dictionary, you'll see a picture of my first start celebration. I eventually prevailed, but suffice it to say it didn't start right up. It did, however, crank over right away. And, before I attempted to crank it over the fuel pump did not run with the ignition in the Run position. I was quite troubled about that, and was a little lost about what to do. The PCM was not outputting 12V at the fuel pump relay, not even for a second or two in the Run position. But, I decided to move forward anyway because I was fairly confident in my electrical connections. And, given some of the experiences I've read from other Gen 3 builders--it seems this is not an uncommon issue.

It took a lot cycles of engine cranking, about 2-3 seconds per attempt, before the engine started and ran for a whopping one second. Sputtered is a more accurate word. Then, it was many, many more cycles of sputtering for 1-5 seconds before it would shut down. Curiously, there were no MILs along the way, so the PCM wasn't complaining. My gut tells me it was fuel related. I thought maybe a piece of debris was lodged somewhere, preventing fuel flow. Was the fuel filter passing fuel? I honestly thought about giving up and regrouping the next day. Apparently, it must take a lot of engine cranking to pull the fuel into the fuel rail, and purge out the air? Anyway, as I said it was anything but a smooth first start. Once it finally started, it didn't take too long to settle into a somewhat decent idle. In subsequent starts, it has only improved and now starts immediately and is running smooth!

This is a video of what I experienced at first. It was cranking over fine. It would sort of start, but mostly sputter, or just crank over with no sputter. Video is 35 seconds: https://youtube.com/shorts/MhIBSV4o1tw?feature=share

Now the motor is getting really close to running. This second video is probably unnecessary, but perhaps it might be helpful to another Gen 3 builder. Video is 25 seconds: https://youtube.com/shorts/N6PU_sLkvv8?feature=share

And, successful "First Start"! Video is 16 seconds: https://youtube.com/shorts/WYf8-0MNMIE?feature=share

About this time my wife came home and made this walk around video...I couldn't resist sneaking in a few revs just for good measure. Video is 27 seconds:
https://youtube.com/shorts/4RhZ8rchrgY?feature=share

And, finally, in honor of Ben, this is the video he would have taken and most excited to share. Video is 10 seconds: https://youtube.com/shorts/-Fb_fD-5JNg?feature=share

Some observations about my experience:

• Interestingly, the MIL was not lit throughout most of the stuttering/shut down nonsense. It eventually did light, throwing a P0100 (MAF) code. I cleared it, and it hasn't come back. Happy to report no MIL/fault codes at this time after running to full operating temp.
• All gauges including the Tach are working. Phew! Interestingly, the oil PSI initially pegged at 100 and stayed there for a bit even though the motor was at idle (~7,500 RPM). I had some warning about this from various posts on the forum, but it was still a bit unsettling to see it at first. Once the motor came up to full operating temp, it settled down to about 25-30 PSI. I started it cold this morning, and back it went to 100 PSI, but then settled down as the oil warmed up. I added about 3 3/4 gallons of gas to bring the gauge to ~1/4 full.
• As I mentioned above, I'm very happy to report the fuel lines are leak free so far. Power steering lines as well.
• After FINALLY after getting it to run stable, I set fuel pressure to 65 PSI on the Aeromotive regulator. It was initially set to about 50 PSI out of the box. And, the fuel pump now kicks on for about one second or so when the ignition is in the Run position (before Starting).
• As others have noted, the fan kicks on around 195 deg. But, the temp drops pretty quickly when the fan is running, so it doesn't run long. My garage temp was about 75 deg., so I expect more fan cycling in warmer ambient temps.
• Checked heat on the interior side of the DS footbox. It was definitely warm to the touch, but not hot. (I'm using Thermo-Tec heat and sound insulation).

I better close this long-winded update...pretty sure I need to head out to the garage and hear that Coyote howl again!

[Papa]

Congratulations, Chris! You did it!!!!

Dave

[Fman]

Way to go Chris! Nice work, engine sounds great... enjoy the first start buzz...

[Blitzboy54]

Sounds like victory!

Congratulations my friend.

[edwardb]

Big milestone in the build. Congratulations!

[facultyofmusic]

HELL YEAH DUDE I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS. Congrats!! I'm following very close right behind ya! Your wire-hanger idea is actually ingenious. I'll be borrowing that! :P

[JohnK]

Wow - awesome! Congratulations Chris. I'm sure Ben is looking down on you with a huge grin.

[Ted G]

Very COOL! Sounds amazing!!

[John Ibele]

Fantastic, Chris, what a great milestone. Sounds great. Hopefully I'm not too far behind you.

[460.465USMC]

Congratulations, Chris! You did it!!!!

Dave

Honestly, I can't believe it myself. Dave, thanks for your tips and support along the way!

Way to go Chris! Nice work, engine sounds great... enjoy the first start buzz...

Much appreciated, Travis! Yes, I'm glad mine won't have a sound system...the exhaust notes are all the music I need.

P.S. I'm going to put in the Wilwood remote bias adjuster. Thanks to your build in first showing me this recommended add-on!

Sounds like victory!

Congratulations my friend.

Thanks, Jesse! Yeah, this victory is sweet!

Big milestone in the build. Congratulations!

Thanks, Paul! I can't say enough about how much your build threads have helped me. Not to mention the questions you've answered via PM!

[460.465USMC]

HELL YEAH DUDE I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS. Congrats!! I'm following very close right behind ya! Your wire-hanger idea is actually ingenious. I'll be borrowing that! :P

Thanks, Dan! I know you'll be right there with me in no time. Very much looking forward to seeing/hearing yours roar to life!

I saw one or two other builders do the wire hangar thing. Like so many ideas incorporated into my build, I copied it.

Wow - awesome! Congratulations Chris. I'm sure Ben is looking down on you with a huge grin.

It feels really good, John. You have been so helpful to me along the way, and I draw a lot of inspiration from your build. Thanks for sharing your tips and knowledge with me!

Very COOL! Sounds amazing!!

Thanks, Ted. It sounds pretty good on the video, but wait until you hear yours in person. No doubt you'll be there in MUCH less time than it took me. I'm following along. Keep up the quality work.

Fantastic, Chris, what a great milestone. Sounds great. Hopefully I'm not too far behind you.

Hi John. Great to hear from you. I hope you have a chance to get to your First Start soon!

[NYMike]

I’m a little late to the party here, but congrats on the huge milestone getting the first start win Chris! It sounds awesome. The Gas N pipes are definitely worth it and yours look great.

[JeffP]

Nice Job Chris, Congrats!!! I managed to get 477mi on mine with the stock tune and the last two trips I've started to notice some hesitate and a little more roughness. I'm guessing from running rich. Fortunately, My base tune from Lund showed up and got it loaded - just the initial one at this point but man did it smooth it out.

[460.465USMC]

I’m a little late to the party here, but congrats on the huge milestone getting the first start win Chris! It sounds awesome. The Gas N pipes are definitely worth it and yours look great.

Thanks, Mike! It's been a journey, and feels really good to make it to this point.

Nice Job Chris, Congrats!!! I managed to get 477mi on mine with the stock tune and the last two trips I've started to notice some hesitate and a little more roughness. I'm guessing from running rich. Fortunately, My base tune from Lund showed up and got it loaded - just the initial one at this point but man did it smooth it out.

Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate you input on the Lund tune. I'm a ways off from that point, but they are high on my list given the many recommends. I want a tuner with a very solid rep. for obvious reasons. I look forward to your continued updates on the tune.

[460.465USMC]

Quick update on the radiator leak: as promised F5 promptly shipped out a replacement radiator. Apparently, the box had a rough go of it during transit.




Not going to take a chance this thing won't leak, so contacted F5 a couple days ago. They're going to send me a replacement for my replacement radiator. The rough handling isn't F5's fault. Hoping the next one arrives unscathed. Thanks again for the continued solid support, F5! I'll have a leak free radiator...some day.

P.S. After three full engine heat cycles, the JB Weld is doing a good job of patching the leak.

[JohnK]

Oof. That sucks Chris. Sorry to hear that, but glad that F5 is making it right. Hang in there.

[facultyofmusic]

Oh come on man... So sorry to see this happen. Luckily there's always something else to work on right?

[460.465USMC]

For sure, Dan! I have a pretty long list of things I need to/want to complete before first go-kart. And, in the meantime I still get to fire up the Coyote...just for fun.

[460.465USMC]

I have a large list of To Dos before first go-kart. First up was Installing the trunk aluminum. To get proper overlap, I installed them in this order: upper trunk, lower trunk, lower sides, and lastly the upper sides I made.




The license plate wiring is routed through the rear PS corner of the upper trunk panel, near the roll bar diagonal mount. The wiring for the cubby lighting drops out of this harness (visible in picture below) and will route inside the Breeze cubby area to illuminate the storage area when the courtesy lights are on.

Here the corner brackets Mark supplies are visible in case anyone has not seen the Breeze cubby, .




Once fastened in place, the lower trunk panel horizontal kick-out was wavy. Others have reported this issue as well. To fix it, I traced the kick-out and cut out a "splint" from the scrap .090" aluminum left over from my dash. I coated the bottom side with black paint, and fastened the splint.

Simple splint




I went heavy on the rivets.




The splint and close rivet spacing took out 80%-90% of the waviness. Since I was in the area, I also installed the fuel strap block-off plate--visible in above picture.



I bet I have the same 3/4" bent tube issue JohnK reported. He added a shim to fix. I think the remaining 10%-20% waviness in mine could have been removed had I been more on the ball and installed that earlier. I don't think it will be all that visible, so I'm calling it good. Thanks to JohnK for documenting this fix! Lastly, I installed the covers for the fuel gauge and fuel pump. I made them removable by installing four 8-32 riv nuts.

I applied Thermo-Tec to the rest of the trunk aluminum to give the aluminum some "depth". I had been holding off as long as possible on sealing up the trunk in case I needed to get at the fuel or brake lines. Now that it's sealed up, I'm hoping I won't need to get back in there.

Next up was installation of the roll bars. It went okay, I guess. I cleaned up the pipe mounting surfaces by using abrasive open mesh cloth. I found it in the plumbing isle. (I think plumbers use it to clean up copper pipes before sweating joints). Then I applied some silicone lubricant. This made a huge difference in how the hoop and angle support pieces slid together.

After fitting both sides there was about 1/16"+ gap where the rear diagonal support meets the hoop. I assumed this was due to slight variations during the weld process. The F5 instructions have you drilling the lower mounts first, and finish with drilling the top hole on the diagonal. However, much later in the instructions, it shows the opposite sequence. I tried the latter on the PS, drilling the upper hole in the diagonal first, followed by the lower mount holes. Not sure if I didn't play around enough with the fitment, or if it was due to F5's welding variation, or the drilling sequence I followed. But the PS side ended up with a 1/16"+ gap. Bummer. I'm not happy about that (it shouts DIY gone wrong to me!). Hoping for a little redemption, I moved on to the DS, and this time reversed the drilling sequence. For whatever reason I was able to get the fitment right on the money--no gap.

Gap on PS rollbar




No gap on DS.




Instead of the Frankenstein bolt, I tapped the forward side of the diagonal for a 5/16"-24 screw, and secured it with a button head screw. (See picture above). I saw another builder do this, and liked it. I just need to coat the screw black, and it should pretty much disappear (unless you're looking for it). (I was sorely tempted to buy the boltless solution from 520 Speedworks, but decided that money was better spent on the Fastrax wheel alignment tool. I want to attempt my own alignment. Looks like a really cool [and challenging!] task. We'll see how that goes). Then I removed the rollbars, and used a telescoping magnet to pull the metal chips from the rollbar welded base mounts. I deburred all the holes while I had it apart. Put it all back together. Having the rollbars installed definitely changes the look of the chassis! I have everything together with temp. hardware until final install.

[460.465USMC]

From there I moved on to the Breeze cubby. Followed Mark's instructions and it went together well. After the cubby wall was installed, I put on the bulb seal he supplies with his kit. This is the first piece of bulb seal I've installed. It feels kind of like I've reached another milestone. I made the cubby opening 5" X 17.5" as Mark shows in his instructions. This is a generous opening, and I think this area will be functional, especially since I didn't put in a glove box. To cut the radius ends I bought a circle cutter from Harbor Freight for about $5. Not sure it was even worth the $5. Definitely a one-time use tool! Despite its rebellion against cutting the 5" hole through the 0.040", I managed to win the battle. Before installing the edging vinyl, I cleaned up the edges with a deburring tool.



For a cleaner look, I try to install rivets so the collapsed side is not visible (where possible). I must have been on auto-pilot when installing the outer edge rivets of the cockpit wall. So, guess what? I got to do these two dozen rivets twice. Is it any wonder I build at a turtleeee pace? Regardless of two steps forward, one step back, the rear cockpit wall is done!

A few things checked off the go-kart list. Feels good.

[NYMike]

Looking good Chris. We also had no problem with the diagonal tube on the drivers side and struggled like crazy with getting the one on the passengers side to slide all the way up. It was definitely an angle mismatch from welding somewhere that we were fighting.

[zee]

From there I moved on to the Breeze cubby. Followed Mark's instructions and it went together well. After the cubby wall was installed, I put on the bulb seal he supplies with his kit. This is the first piece of bulb seal I've installed. It feels kind of like I've reached another milestone. I made the cubby opening 5" X 17.5" as Mark shows in his instructions. This is a generous opening, and I think this area will be functional, especially since I didn't put in a glove box. To cut the radius ends I bought a circle cutter from Harbor Freight for about $5. Not sure it was even worth the $5. Definitely a one-time use tool! Despite its rebellion against cutting the 5" hole through the 0.040", I managed to win the battle. Before installing the edge trip, I cleaned up the edges with a deburring tool.



For a cleaner look, I try to install rivets so the collapsed side is not visible (where possible). I must have been on auto-pilot when installing the outer edge rivets of the cockpit wall. So, guess what? I got to do these two dozen rivets twice. Is it any wonder I build at a turtleeee pace? Regardless of two steps forward, one step back, the rear cockpit wall is done!

A few things checked off the go-kart list. Feels good.

Really enjoying this build thread and have been bookmarking a lot :-).

question: does the breeze sheet go a specific distance from the cockpit or can it go right behind the rollbar?

[460.465USMC]

Looking good Chris. We also had no problem with the diagonal tube on the drivers side and struggled like crazy with getting the one on the passengers side to slide all the way up. It was definitely an angle mismatch from welding somewhere that we were fighting.

Thanks, Mike! You make a good point. Maybe I could have completely closed the PS gap with a second set of hands.

[460.465USMC]

Really enjoying this build thread and have been bookmarking a lot :-).

question: does the breeze sheet go a specific distance from the cockpit or can it go right behind the rollbar?

Thanks, Zee. Glad it's of some use to you. If nothing else, I can provide some cautions on what not to do.

On my installation the Breeze cubby "wall" sits back about 12" from the junction of the rear cockpit wall and the trunk floor. (His instructions estimate 11" back). So, it does provide a generous amount of cubby storage space. The tradeoff, of course, is less upper trunk space. The vertical angle pieces he provides allow for adjustment of the wall location forward/rearward, but you'd need to trim the wall in order to move it forward (i.e. toward the rollbar hoop mounts) past what you see in my picture. Also, the contact point with the body might be an issue if you change the wall position too much--someone else who's completed their build could comment on that aspect. Hope that helps.

[zee]

Thanks, Zee. Glad it's of some use to you. If nothing else, I can provide some cautions on what not to do.

On my installation the Breeze cubby "wall" sits back about 12" from the junction of the rear cockpit wall and the trunk floor. (His instructions estimate 11" back). So, it does provide a generous amount of cubby storage space. The tradeoff, of course, is less upper trunk space. The vertical angle pieces he provides allow for adjustment of the wall location forward/rearward, but you'd need to trim the wall in order to move it forward (i.e. toward the rollbar hoop mounts) past what you see in my picture. Also, the contact point with the body might be an issue if you change the wall position too much--someone else who's completed their build could comment on that aspect. Hope that helps.

Thanks.

I am debating between the breeze cubby storage and this mod:



I keep going back n forth on them . The person who did the above mod did a lot more frame modification and welding than I think is necessary.

I ride a motorcycle so getting out to store / retrieve things from the trunk isn't a big deal. I see the value of the cubby storage (I am skipping the glovebox too), but I also like the originality mod.

Decisions, decisions.

[NYMike]

Thanks, Mike! You make a good point. Maybe I could have completely closed the PS gap with a second set of hands.

Yeah…it was more like 4 hands, grease, a Dremel to trim the little stopper welds on the frame and open up the inside of the tube a little, a mallet, a pry bar, and blisters from twisting the tube back and forth. There is still a tiny bit of a gap…

[460.465USMC]

Wow! That actually makes me feel a little better, Mike. That PS side is a bear!

[orangecruz]

Hey Chris

Wow what can i say super jealous of your build. over the last few days I've read start to finish around work commitments.
What a car and what attention to detail Well done sir

Sorry to hear about Ben also , condolences to you and the family.


Keep up the excellent work

[Ted G]

Looking great Chris!