Good news.....I'm going to officially make the conclusion that my issues is vapor lock due to heat. Why you ask?.......I had 30 minutes before heading to my meeting so I started the 33 up, ran like a champ, no stumbling, good idle, so I decided to take it out for a quick spin (was a little leary cause I didn't have time to get stranded)....drove it about 10 minutes (couple miles), never had any issues, ran like it did the 1st 100 miles. Outside temp is upper 70s (78F).
To try to solve for a Vapor Lock issue I have ordered the following:
1) 1/2" fiber spacer for between the carb & Intake to insulate the carb from direct intake heat
2) 15 feet of DEI thermal tape for insulating the fuel lines by the engine, anything close to the exhaust and the fuel pump
3) WIX 33040 vapor separator fuel filter
4) 25 ft of 1/4 vapor line so I can run from the WIX filter back to the 1/4" port on the FFR sending unit (right now mine is capped off).
Everything should be here early next week.
I "think" if I can get the fuel system insulated from some of the heat it will solve my issue. Time will tell.
Now that you mention it, I did have the same thing happen to me at one of my very first races in the GT40 when I was still setting it up. I had been idling for way too long in the queue for a 1/2 mile sprint on a warm day, and when I when to pull away it was like the fuel pump was playing up - a horrible run.
I added a 1" phenolic (?) spacer under the carb, and this wonderful insulation around all fuel lines around the engine (I LOVE this stuff). Solved all the problems.
James
FFR33 #997 (Gen1 chassis, Gen2 body), license plate DRIVE IT says it all! build thread
My build: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, sway bars, 355/30r19
Previous cars: GTD40, Cobra, tubeframe 55 Chevy, 66 Nova, 56 F100
I have another troubleshooting idea that involves another drive for a similar distance on an equally warm day with a cooler full of ice in the trunk.
That's an interesting idea Earl, I'll give that a try sometime this weekend since my parts don't show up until mid-next week anyway.
I do have sound barrier under my tank so that will insulate it some from heat but I'm wondering if I should see if I can install something under the frame by the tank area.
Now that you mention it, I did have the same thing happen to me at one of my very first races in the GT40 when I was still setting it up. I had been idling for way too long in the queue for a 1/2 mile sprint on a warm day, and when I when to pull away it was like the fuel pump was playing up - a horrible run.
I added a 1" phenolic (?) spacer under the carb, and this wonderful insulation around all fuel lines around the engine (I LOVE this stuff). Solved all the problems.
Good to hear it solved your issue James, gives me a little piece of mind that I'm on the right trail.
This is my first experience with "vapor lock", so now I understand what folks are referring to...I've dealt with heat soak / saturation tons of time on my older mustangs where they were tough to start after being shut off after along run, but never vapor lock.
I watched a video the other day on you tube where a company attached a clear fuel line to the car to show vapor lock and when the engine was cool, there was a solid flow of fuel in the line with no bubbles, and as the engine heated up, more and more bubbles formed in the fuel line and worked their way towards the carb until there was only bubble (vapor) in the line and the engine stumbled and then stalled. Pretty neat to see.
Intuitively thinking about vapour lock I'd be more concerned about the insulating the fuel lines (small size component + small volume of fuel = less thermal mass= easier to heat up) than the tank (big component + bigger volume of fuel = large thermal mass = harder to heat up).
If you do some reading on return systems one of the benefits often mentioned is that you are constantly delivering cool fuel to the engine.
I have another troubleshooting idea that involves another drive for a similar distance on an equally warm day with a cooler full of ice in the trunk.
Hi Earl
I gave the cooler full of ice in the trunk suggestion a try yesterday (left the lid off) where outside temps were in the mid-90's (similar to the other day). I also took the exact same route I took the first time this happened, and almost in the exact same spot (I mean eerily within ~50 yards) the car started acting up again and then got worse from there (stumbling, stalling, couldn't keep running, etc.).
Once I limped it home, I Let it sit about 2 hours, then restarted it, and was back to being fine so definitely a vapor lock situation going on here.
Everything I ordered to mitigate the issue should be here today / tomorrow.
LOL I should have been more specific. I was thinking more along the lines of packing ice around the carb/intake/fuelines.
I don't know how practical my idea is though, thinking about leakage and how to enclose the ice in something that won't melt or catch on fire....maybe put the ice in ziplock bags and then wrap the bags in tin foil?
LOL I should have been more specific. I was thinking more along the lines of packing ice around the carb/intake/fuelines.
I don't know how practical my idea is though, thinking about leakage and how to enclose the ice in something that won't melt or catch on fire....maybe put the ice in ziplock bags and then wrap the bags in tin foil?
Oops!! Somebody told me to try those cans of compressed air you use to clean your keyboards when it acts up...supposedly the air comes out very cold and may be enough to cool the carb / lines to figure out (temporarily) if it is vapor lock.
Probably doesn't matter, parts will be here soon so I'll know soon enough.
Actually you can buy chiller spray for that exact purpose. It gets used alot in electronics troubleshooting, particularly for finding bad solder joints.
As part of the steps to resolve my vapor lock issue, last night I got the electric fuel pump moved from the engine bay to the back of the car under the frame about a foot from the filter so fairly close to the tank outlet.
Next up I'm going to install the fiber spacer under the carb to reduce the metal to metal heat transfer from the intake to the carb. I do need to check clearance however before I rip everything apart. I only went with a 1/2" spacer but with 2 gaskets (one below and one above the spacer) we are talking closer to 3/4" and I know with my dual side flow air cleaner I have I'm fairly close to the hood already, just not sure how close. Need to pull out the silly putty to see what clearance I have.
I will also reroute my gas line to get it further away from the headers (right now it's about 3" from the header running up the side of the head) as well as put heat shield on it to help insulate it from the heat.
Finally, I ordered heat shield fabric (not wrap) for the shorty headers which should help to reduce a lot of the heat radiating up from the headers.
I'm hoping with all this that I will have solved my vapor lock issue. Should know by the end of the weekend.
Last night I installed the fiber spacer between the carb & intake (verified clearnance between hood & carb before & after). 20210714_193600.jpg
Next I rerouted my fuel line away from the headers and installed the DEI insulation. As noted previously, originally I had it mounted directly on the driver's side head so it was only ~3" from the headers. Now the hard line is mounted to the frame and there is a flex line that runs from the carb to the frame (can't see it with the insulation installed). 20210714_195622.jpg20210714_195626.jpg
Next I installed the insulation on the entire fuel line that runs along the rocker area and up into the engine bay as well as a 2 foot section of brake line that is about 3" away from the muffler on the driver's side. 20210714_193158.jpg20210714_193327.jpg20210714_193341.jpg
Fired it back up to make sure there were no leaks as a result of the new plumbing (all good) and let it come up to temp. I was amazed at the temp difference on the fuel lines with just the insulation added. Prior to doing this you could not keep your hand on the fuel line by the carb for a long period of time due to the heat, now I can grab the line and leave it there. Not a real test mind you, but encouraging.
I didn't let it idle for an extended period of time with the hood closed or take it for a long run yet to avoid jinxing myself. I want to make sure I have the heat shield installed on the heaters first which completed my overall plan before doing so. The heat shield should arrive tomorrow (Friday) and I'll install it Saturday and give it a try. I also ordered some DEI insulation for wiring in which I want to install that on the wires running along the intake manifold as an added piece of mind.
First test I want to do when everything is installed is bring it out in the driveway and just let it idle for an extended period. I figure hood closed & just idling while not moving is a worst case situation and if it doesn't vapor lock after an hour or so I think we are good. Next as a comparison, I'll take the same driving route I took when the issue surfaced. Looks like the temps this weekend will be within a degree or two (upper 80's / low 90's) of where they were when I had the issue so it should be a comparable test.
Two things that I’ve used historically to fight vapor lock. Best is a return line back to the gas tank. That way when the needle seats and the fuel pump keeps pumping it bypasses back to the gas tank. Secondly, you can go old-school and put clothes pins on the metal line to help dissipate the heat and see if it helps. Back in the day used to see fuel lines with literally dozens.
33 Hot Rod #1133. LS/TKO600
Delivered 6-17-19. Started work 7-3-19. First start 9-6-19. First drive 9-24-19
Titled 2-28-20
Two things that I’ve used historically to fight vapor lock. Best is a return line back to the gas tank. That way when the needle seats and the fuel pump keeps pumping it bypasses back to the gas tank. Secondly, you can go old-school and put clothes pins on the metal line to help dissipate the heat and see if it helps. Back in the day used to see fuel lines with literally dozens.
I installed a WIX #33040 Fuel Filter (link below) last night in the 33. This filter has an added output for a 1/4" return line back to the tank and a lot of folks experiencing vapor lock noted their issues were resolved after installing this.
I then ran a 1/4" line back to the tank and used the 1/4" return inlet on the fuel sender.
I'm getting really good at stripping the interior (seat, waterfall trim, waterfall) with all the fuel and radio issues I've been working on lately.
The header heat shield kit was delayed getting to me; was supposed to arrive Friday, finally got it yesterday. I did the passenger side last night (started with the hardest side first). Interesting process, lots of patience is required, but it turned out nice.
It basically comes in two 18"x24" sheets (rolled up). You make a template using butcher's paper or some other stiffer but flexible material (cardboard was too stiff). Next you lay your template on the heat shield material and trace your template onto the heat shield making all lines 1/2" wider.
Next, cut out your shape in the material and then you take a sharp utility knife and carefully cut through the white insulation (only the insulation) 1/2" in front your edge and remove the 1/2" of insulation all the way around the shape just leaving the foil. Next you fold the exposed 1/2" of foil over all the edges and it leaves you with your original shape matching your template but you now have clean edges due to folding over the edges.
Mount the heat shield onto the header using the provided stainless steel wire (use as much as or as little as you'd like) shaping it as you go. If you take your time the results are pretty good, just due to lack of room the passenger side was pretty challenging but the driver's side should be much easier.
Originally I tried winging it and not making a template and it was too cumbersome trying to move around the 18x24 sheet in a tight spot. A template is definitely the way to go.
The interesting thing about this stuff is you don't completely wrap the header, you're just wrapping the heatshielf over the top and around the sides, the underneath is still open so you're not voiding the header warranty. Supposed to reduce heat by 40%, guess we'll see.
I also added heat shielding tube to the spark plug boots since they are fairly close to the header. Some are thing this is a bunch of overkill I know, but I don't want to have to worry about excess heat any more.
I'll do the driver side tonight and do a quick test but then this weekend start it up and just let it idle (worst case scenario) in the driveway with everything closed up for a good hour or so to see how much of a difference there is in temps. I'm confident with all this (including my fuel system changes) that my vapor lock issue will be resolved.
Will be interesting to see what changes. It should stop direct radiation onto other components so individual hot spots should be reduced.
Nice job on forming the shape!
Steve
Gen 1 '33 Hot Rod #1104
347 with Holley Sniper & Hyperspark, TKO600, IRS, 245/40R18 & 315/30R18, DRL, Digital Guard Dog keyless Ignition
Driver's side done. I included some pics to show the pattern and taking off 1/2" of insulation and folding the foil over in case I confused some folks.
I ran the engine until it came up to temp with the hood closed and the results when I open the hood are actually unbelievable. Prior to the heat shield I was measuring 250-300F on the headers easily, and with the heat shield on you can see the temps I took (mid 130s - 150's), pretty much that 40%+ temp reduction the company advertised I would see.
Granted, the true test will be when I just let it idle for an extended period of time in the driveway tomorrow with everything closed up. And of course cruising the same loop when I noticed the vapor lock issue.
Just got done letting the 33 idle in the driveway for an hour & fifteen minutes. There was no stumbling what so ever, so I then took it out for a short cruise (about 15 minutes) and again, no stumbling or misses, it ran strong.
Temps taken on the heat shield on the headers with the hood closed (checked it through the port holes) stayed consistent with the readings above. I checked them every fifteen minutes.
The engine after idling so long climbed to about 210-215 (never got to 220), however the electric fan kept up with it. Once I started my cruise engine temps dropped down to about 190-195. Interesting thing is the port holes I have work better than I thought. With it idling in the driveway and the electric fan going, there is a constant flow of hot air exiting the port holes. I held up a tissue to one of the port holes and there is definitely a decent current coming through them.
I do need to check my 1/4" return line by the tank that I just installed, I now have a fumey smell in the cockpit by the shoulder belt holes and that being the only thing I did to the tank I'm guessing that's the source.
I'm going to call the vapor lock issue resolved. Yay!!
Also took some pics yesterday when it was outside in the driveway.
I included a pic once it was back on the lift looking up at the rear. To me at least, it's cool looking pic (would have been better if I remembered to turn the trunk handle down to the close position, but oh well).
Last time I posted, I let the car run for an hour plus in the drive way with no signs of vapor lock and then I took it out for a spirited 15 minute drive with no vapor lock so I called the issue resolved which it still is, but I noted that I had a slight gas smell coming from the holes where the seat belts exit. I initially thought it may have been the 1/4" return line I installed (either a clamp not tight enough or I didn't seat it right on the sender nipple).
Today after resolving my stereo issue I was having, I was contemplating taking out the interior one more time (getting good at it) to get a better look at the tank to see if I had a leak. I decided to take the car out first since the smell was more of a slight smell than a strong odor you get when gas is physically leaking. Figured the risk was pretty low but I did throw a fire extinguisher in the car just in case.
After about 40 minutes of cruising (nice to not have to worry about vapor lock any more), I came home, pulled in the garage, and started smelling around the seat belt openings and nothing, not even the slight hint of gas odor.
Any thoughts on that? Is it because when I had it in the driveway idling that perhaps the vent line under the car from the tank was causing vapor odors to rise up into the body cavity exiting out the seat belt holes and by just driving it today the moving air doesn't allow and odors to accumulate under the body and get into the body?
I have an endoscope camera so after I got back and didn't notice any odors, I looked in through the seat belt holes on top of the tank by the hoses and down the right & left side of the tank as well as some of the front and there is no signs of leaking gas anywhere.
Does my theory about vapor rising into the body from the vent line under the car from idling so long hold water, or what does every one think? Not sure if I should mark this down as a fluke and life goes on or if I should dig deeper.
All I'll say is that when I *fill* my tank, the car smells of gas.. after 5-10 miles it's gone. I just figure when it's super full some gas sloshes down the vent and you can smell it. I don't have a charcoal canister or anything, just an open-ended hose, so I was always surprised it didn't smell all the time (it's just an open hose to a tank of gas after all!)
James
FFR33 #997 (Gen1 chassis, Gen2 body), license plate DRIVE IT says it all! build thread
My build: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, sway bars, 355/30r19
Previous cars: GTD40, Cobra, tubeframe 55 Chevy, 66 Nova, 56 F100
All I'll say is that when I *fill* my tank, the car smells of gas.. after 5-10 miles it's gone. I just figure when it's super full some gas sloshes down the vent and you can smell it. I don't have a charcoal canister or anything, just an open-ended hose, so I was always surprised it didn't smell all the time (it's just an open hose to a tank of gas after all!)
Same As me James, I just have the open ended hose. I may add a charcoal filter, not sure yet. I've heard some folks who've added the charcoal filter are having more issues with fumes so I need to research those some.
Thinking about it more last night, I'm wondering since I added the 1/4" return line for the Wix filter that I added which is supposed to help bleed off excess gas due to the fuel pump as well as vapor from the line to the carb, if since I ran it so long idling in the drive way to test if I resolved the vapor lock issue if that was pushing more pressure into the tank and pushing "warmer" gas / vapor from the engine bay into the tank causing more out-gasing out of the the vent line.
I know when we get these 90 plus degree days that my 5 gallon plastic gas container for filling the mower builds up pressure too, and actually hisses when I open the spout due to the pressure. The 33 could be a similar situation where I created an excessive amount of pressure by not only idling the car for over an hour in one spot but also having the car in the driveway on a sunny, hot (90+ degree) day.
Not sure; I'll just have to keep an eye on it (or a nose).
Finally got around to fixing my booboo from a couple months back where I got the running boards hung up on the trailer while loading it for my inspection and cracked the driver's side running board....still pissed about that, but now it's as good as new and I can put it behind me, just need to cut & buff the area in 48 hours.
After I did the fiber glassing and body filler, I used an air brush for the primer, base & clear....worked pretty damn good. Mixing the material thin enough for the air brush was a PITA but it worked.
1 year ago yesterday (9/25) my 33 Hot Rod kit was delivered.
Not to be overly sentimental since I've done a lot of restoration over the years which is almost like a kit car once everything is cleaned up and the reassembly begins, but I'd have to say the whole build your own kit car from the ground up experience was probably one of the funnest builds I ever did. I kind of miss it.
Looking back, I'm not quite sure how I completed the car in a little over 8 months while working 70 hours a week at my day job, but I managed to pull it off. It was a very hectic (in a good way) time but now I find myself with what I could equate to adrenaline let down. Your going like crazy on the car and then it's done. Sure there is still tweaking to be done, but for the most part, the build is done, registered, licensed, insured and on the road so there is this dare i say sadness that it's done. It sure was a fun build build though, I'd do it again in a heart beat. My wife actually actually hinted at the FFR truck the other day. Time will tell.
For now, the 2021 winter project is to get the 55 F100 I took a hiatus on to work on the 33 finished up to the full assembled / mock up stage where I can hopefully get it into paint sometime in April. As you can see from the pics, the frame is sandblasted / painted & the new TCI IFS front & parabolic leaf spring rear suspension with Curry 9" rear end is installed, new box, fenders, bed is installed and the new 302 crate motor is in, although it needs to come again to adjust drive line angles.
I'm bringing it home today to my home garage so I can work on it on the weekends (primarily Saturday afternoons & Sundays) and on Saturday mornings / early afternoon I'll tackle the final body prep on my 67 Mustang convertible I've been working on for a couple years (all the new metal is installed). Hoping to get that in paint by April as well (if not sooner).
The 33 is gorgeous. Congratulations! Love the full fenders and running boards.
Glad you found a few more projects to keep you busy. You are a machine.
-Steve
I miss working on the 33, but I really miss driving it (stored for the winter). The frame off restoration on my 1955 F100 pickup is coming along nicely. Started the engine today for the first time, sounds great.
Not much on the 33 (still stored for winter, couple more months), I sprayed the sealer and base on the box of the 55 F100 yesterday, will do the clear coat this morning.
Color is '08-13 Chevy Atomic Orange. Decided to tint the sealer in case I get stone chips it will hide a little more. My daughter damn near had a stroke when she saw the sealer; "Please tell me that is not the color it's going to be Dad" She says.
Tailgate, front stone guard, and some misc smaller parts painted Thursday night. Took them out of the booth this morning.
Couple runs that need to be addressed but it is what it is. I believe this is because while the homemade paint booth does great at pulling out the fumes / over spray it also sucks a good portion of the heat out so the ventilation keeps the parts right at the lower end of curing for the clear and then until I figured that out I wasn't giving the parts enough time to fully flash between coats so I'm getting runs. Fixable, just more work.
Doing the rear fenders today, I'll proof that theory when I clear those. The good news is color is going on. (y)
Rear Fenders done. What I mentioned above about cooler temps affecting the clear coat and not waiting long enough between the coats of clear was the exactly the problem.
When I cleared the rear fenders instead of waiting 5-10 minutes between coats like they suggested (@70F) I waited 15-20 minutes (@60-ishF) and the results are dramatic. So much better!
Sure wish I would have thought of this earlier to avoid some work for myself but oh well, live and learn. Now I just need to rinse and repeat this process on the running boards, rear roll pan, front fenders, hood & cab and life will be good.
Just very minor orange peel on the fenders which willl be easy to get out.
Got a call from a laser engraving company in my hometown yesterday that my data plaque was done. It's been so long that with all the other projects I'm into these days honestly I forgot my wife took it in to have the VIN# laser etched on the plaque and I just assumed it was sitting in some drawer in my shop waiting for me to do something with it.
This company ended up doing it for free and were highly apologetic it took so long. Apparently it got mixed up in some paperwork they had on the counter the day my wife brought it in and it was shoved into a file. We took it in (June of 2021) and it wasn't until Monday this week (August 22nd, 2022) that they opened that particular file for some reason and there sat my plaque.
Kind of a nice surprise. Now I need to figure out where on the firewall to put it.
We engraved ours with a Cricut and I was thinking of a similar placement on the firewall. The official State of Michigan VIN sticker is on the chassis next to the steering shaft.
- Peterh226 #1134
'33 Hot Rod 2nd Gen. Blueprint 383 Sniper TKO Delivered 4/14/2019
Full Fenders, Top, 3-Link, Wilwoods
YOKOHAMA ADVAN NEOVA AD08 R | Fr 245/45 R17 | Rr 295/30 R18
AR605 Torq-Thrust M Chrome | Fr 17x8 | Rr 18x10
33 Hot Rod Stage 1, Gen.2 ordered 11/11/2021 started June 12, 2022, LS3 E-Rod crate engine, Tremec TKX, 8.8 WITH 3.55 Ratio and limited slip with 31 spline axles.17X8 and18x10 Race Star wheels wrapped in Conti Extreme contact DWS tires, Mustang Cobra brakes all around. Electric PS and AC. Hard top, electric windows and bike fenders. First Start 5/31/2023. Go-Kart 6/2/2023.
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Originally Posted by narly1
Somebody told me to try those cans of compressed air you use to clean your keyboards when it acts up...supposedly the air comes out very cold and may be enough to cool the carb / lines to figure out (temporarily) if it is vapor lock. 
