Alignment questions - > First drive

[mladen]

Hi all,

Now that I have my engine installed and running, I'm moving toward the first drive and thus I have some questions about it.

1. Is it worth doing (some) alignment at home or should I just take the car to a pro shop?
2. Is there a definitive thread with instructions on how to do alignment (ride height, camber, caster, toe in, etc)?
3. Any other non documented (outside the build manual) tips at this point?

[egchewy79]

For a little more than the cost of an alignment, you can buy some alignment plates and do it yourself. You can also do a rough alignment using the string method or a laser level. I have a solid rear axle so only needed to align my front. FYI it’s much easier to align with body off. Set your ride height first and readjust once body’s back on to get alignment back to where it was.

[Sdonnel]

Like egchewy said, find someone with a Fastrax alignment tool you can borrow, watch a couple Youtube videos and you'll be set. I gave my 18 year old the tool and he did the rest. Took us three tries until we had it dialed in. Car is rock solid at all speeds.

[edwardb]

Ideally, you want the alignment to be in the ballpark before doing any driving. Also depends some on what you define as "driving." For me, go-kart drives are low speed affairs up and down my sub street at very low speed just proving it runs, moves under it's own power, brakes, and mostly just encourages me to keep forging ahead with the build. For that, alignment isn't super critical. If you're planning a whole lot more than that, then alignment becomes more critical. Once on the ground, if it isn't already, setting the ride height is the first step. I've chosen to buy tools to do my own alignments and with multiple builds have never had mine done by anyone else. Plus some buddies that brought theirs here. I've updated tools through the builds, and have more than technically needed for a "rough alignment." Maybe start there and then have it finished later by a pro shop. Or buy a few more things and do it all yourself. But it's not inexpensive and there's a learning curve. Not for everyone. This post in my Coupe build describes some of it. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post357505.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Quick and easy rough alignment that will get you plenty close until you can get it to a pro.

Set tire pressures to 22-24 psi all around
Set ride height; start with 4" front and 4.5" rear
Adjust your upper control arm sleeves like this:



This will equate to approximately 7 degrees positive caster and .5-.75 degree negative camber.

Set toe IN. Using a straight edge placed horizontally across the sidewalls of both front tires measure between both ahead and behind them at the tire's O.D. You want the front measurement to be 1/16"-3/32" less than the rear.


Cheers,
Jeff

UCAlabeled.JPG

[F500guy]

Not rocket science, depends on your level of "want to learn and do it your self". A local speed shop for me would do it for 150.00 or less on a good machine. Biggest issue is the equipment and access with the low ground clearance. For my Miata, I made 4 12'x 24" platforms 6 inches high that I can put the car on to get access underneath to the adjustments and allow the car to roll back and forth a little to settle the chassis.
Tools needed:
Something slippery for the front tires to rotate on when checking caster-Turn plates are nice but couple sheets of plastic/linoleum tiles with W/D 40 works
Strings and 4 jack stands-to get parallelism and rear steer/toe
angle measurement device-Digital or bubble
Toe plates are very helpful and not to expensive
Scales if you want corner weight-or just try and get accurate corner height measurement
Lots of patience as you learn, not all cars are the same, do the correct order of operation, retest-and did I mention patience!

If you want 1 and done, take it to the shop, if you want to fiddle, get the equipment and learn.

[rich grsc]

I would say set your ride height, take it to a good shop that does hotrods or custom setups. Leave the body off, the shop will appreciate that it is easier to access the adjuster's, especially as you have IRS to do too. I know my shop did.

[Mike.Bray]

It's not that difficult if you want to do it yourself but it's best to invest in a few tools. I really enjoy these kinds of things, takes me back to my chassis building days.

For ride height this is handy.

You need this and this for castor and camber measurements.

Turn plates are very useful, not only for ease of turning but so you can easily see the degrees of turn for setting castor.

These are nice for setting the toe but there are other ways.

Using Jeff's measurements you will be very close for a power steering car. Pull a string the length of the chassis along the centerline and use this to set the initial toe. Probably best to drive it some to settle the front suspension. It won't be fully settled but will be close enough for an initial alignment. Then set castor & camber on each side using the gauge. Back and forth a few times to get both sides dialed in. Then set the toe in again.

[BrewCityCobra]

So i can speak from experience that going out without a decent alignment kinda sucks. I did my "out and back" on the street having only done a very quick "eye" alignment beforehand and while the car performed fine you could certainly feel the back end was a bit - shall we say - lively so anything beyond like 20 MPH was an adventure. If I could do it again I would have waited another half-day and did a quick home string-box alignment on my own so I could eliminate that variable from the equation. In fact, I'm planning on doing exactly that once the weather gets a bit nicer here.

[CaptB]

I'm more in the camp of professional alignment, they checked my front, my axle, the pinion angle and it was a good feeling once it was adjusted and you knew all of those things were spot on.

[Dave108]

With respect to the picture Jeff Kleiner posted. The picture and manual only show a zerk fitting on the ball joint. The measurements shown are 8.23" - front, and 7.375" rear adjustment arm (zerk to bolt center). On my roadster the rear arm when at 7.375 zerk to bolt center, the zerk to zerk is 8.5" as Jeff shows. But, my front arm measures 8.23" zerk to bolt center, but zerk to zerk measures 9.25". Not the 9.75" that Jeff shows. It is easier to measure zerk to zerk but I am not understanding why I am 1/2" short on the front. Maybe this is a better setting for initial setup.

[ProfessorB]

I own a Mark II and recently went thru an alignment "education". Thru some knowledgable folks on here, I learned that the Mk II suffered from limited caster. After changing out the upper control arms to the adjustable type, I used Jeff's guidlines as a starting point. First, I read everything I could on caster, camber and tow-in. Then I watched a ton of videos on Youtube about home alignment. Regarding the string vs, laser method, I was surprised to learn that the Nascar teams use string (if only because laser can lose calibration by being knocked around but string is always string). Then I got MORE advice on here about which tools guys preferred. And then....I just did it.
It took me the WHOLE day to get it done. I was pretty happy with myself when the car handled perfectly and went down the road with the steering wheel perfectly centered. I went thru the same corners that previously gave me problems. After a few hundred miles I decided to try just a tad more toe-in (adjusting the same small amount from each side, theorizing that would maintain the steering wheel centered) and it was absolutely perfect.

[GoDadGo]

For a little more than the cost of an alignment, you can buy some alignment plates and do it yourself. You can also do a rough alignment using the string method or a laser level. I have a solid rear axle so only needed to align my front. FYI it’s much easier to align with body off. Set your ride height first and readjust once body’s back on to get alignment back to where it was.

Double, Double Ditto!

I set the ride height and used a couple of alignment plates, an angle finder for camber and Jeff Kleiner's control arm measurements.

Once I completed that process I rolled the car back and forth and found that it rolled freely and looked really good. When I brought the car in to the alignment shop I was shocked that I almost nailed it. It took their Alignment Guru, a fellow nick-named Buck, more time to set the car up to be aligned than it took him to actually do the alignment.

For the record Buck said he loved doing my alignment (Body Off) because the upper control arms only took a couple of twists to get everything ship-shape.

[CraigS]

You can do this yourself and get quite close. If you are interested, that is the key. If your garage floor is flat you can do it w/ simple tools. For camber use a carpenter's square and make the tires vertical to the floor for zero camber. Set the square against the tire but off from center so you miss the tire bulge at the floor. If you want a bit of negative camber set the top of the tire w/ a 1/4" gap to your vertical. At the front use the measurements above to get you close. It is more important that the left is the same as the right than that the measurements are perfect. I use these for toein.
https://www.longacreracing.com/shop....Standard-Style
You can make something similar out of wood and 2 new measuring tapes. At the rear you need to get the toein correct but also have the wheels pointing parallel to the center of the car. I used to hold an 8ft piece of wood trim against the sides of the rear tires 4 inches off the floor w/ the long end going toward the front. I then measured in just behind the front tire to the main frame tube. Adjust until the distance to the frame is the same on both sides. Then I made up these
IMG_20170419_160800746.jpg
The little end piece goes against the frame tube and the scale sits just outside the front fender. I hold a laser against a piece of trim that is against the rear tire and shoot it at the scale. The number doesn't matter as long as L and R are =. I have upgraded my tools since but as I describe above showed up quite well when I later took the car to work and put it on the Hunter alignment machine. Final thought. As ProfessorB says this can be a long process especially the first time while you are perfecting your diy tools and learning the technique. I did 1-4 alignments per week at work for 20+ years and even now I always allow myself 4 hours to do a 4 wheel alignment at home. And that is on a car that is already close but that I want to make a change to.

[Jeff Kleiner]

With respect to the picture Jeff Kleiner posted. The picture and manual only show a zerk fitting on the ball joint. The measurements shown are 8.23" - front, and 7.375" rear adjustment arm (zerk to bolt center). On my roadster the rear arm when at 7.375 zerk to bolt center, the zerk to zerk is 8.5" as Jeff shows. But, my front arm measures 8.23" zerk to bolt center, but zerk to zerk measures 9.25". Not the 9.75" that Jeff shows. It is easier to measure zerk to zerk but I am not understanding why I am 1/2" short on the front. Maybe this is a better setting for initial setup.

Understand that the measurements that I show are just to get you close, not dead nuts on. From here you can drive it to have a full blown precision alignment done or if you're so inclined dial it in yourself. Very important to not forget toe when doing a rough initial setup! If you get that very far off the car will be virtually undrivable even if your caster and camber are right where they need to be.

Jeff

[Dave108]

I don't think I accurately formed my question above.
The manual does not show the zerk fittings on the upper control arm part that mounts to the frame. The diagram with the measurements uses the bolt centers on the upper pivot bolts and the zerk fitting on the ball joint.
If I adjust to get the rear facing arm to the 7.375" length (bolt center to ball joint zerk) the 8.5" zerk to zerk measurement you show is right on. But, when I setup the front facing adjusting arm to the manual 8.23" (bolt center to ball joint zerk) I get a zerk to zerk measurement of 9.25", not the 9.75" shown above.
So my question is; is 9.75" correct as a better initial setting or is that a typo and should be 9.25"? I am jus confused why the rear adjuster is equal and the front is different.

Thanks

[TTimmy]

I was on the fence and ultimately decided to do it myself. I am glad I went this route and added some new tools to my kit and, more importantly, I learned a new skill and have a deeper understanding of my ride.

I purchased the Longacre gear referenced in EdwardB’s post/build. I did this with the body off as it was much easier to get to the adjustment bits. Once the body and other parts are on you can simply reset the ride height and the alignment will be where you left it. This is the sequence I followed… others may weigh in regarding a better sequence.

0. Set tire air pressure
1. Set ride height on level surface
2. Adjust rear wheels to be square to the frame using jackstands and string
3. Adjust rear camber and then toe. (I have IRS) This is a bit of an iterative process as one adjustment will affect the other.
4. Adjust front steering wheel/rack to approximate "center”
5. Adjust front caster - power steering settings for me
6. Adjust front camber
7. Adjust front toe - total. These three steps are a bit of an iterative process as one adjustment will affect the other.
8. Fine tune front toe (distribute left/right) to keep steering wheel centered

I have since fine tuned my alignment now that I have a few thousand miles behind me and I replaced some noisy heim joints on my IRS. It was still pretty good but needs just a bit of tweaking.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I don't think I accurately formed my question above.
The manual does not show the zerk fittings on the upper control arm part that mounts to the frame. The diagram with the measurements uses the bolt centers on the upper pivot bolts and the zerk fitting on the ball joint.
If I adjust to get the rear facing arm to the 7.375" length (bolt center to ball joint zerk) the 8.5" zerk to zerk measurement you show is right on. But, when I setup the front facing adjusting arm to the manual 8.23" (bolt center to ball joint zerk) I get a zerk to zerk measurement of 9.25", not the 9.75" shown above.
So my question is; is 9.75" correct as a better initial setting or is that a typo and should be 9.25"? I am jus confused why the rear adjuster is equal and the front is different.

Thanks

I have no idea how FFR's numbers were determined but I can tell you with certainty that the numbers I showed are from a car that was aligned to approximately 8 degrees positive caster and .5 degree negative camber. There will be some minor variation from car to car but as I said earlier my dimensions are to get you "in the ballpark" until you get the car precision aligned. The same can be said for the numbers Factory Five specified. Frankly you're worrying about something that need not be worried about.

Carry on.

Jeff

[Porky]

Hey Jeff, I'm working on a Mk3 with IRS and am aligning now. My front upper arm looks different from the pic you posted with the dimensions. Can you please tell me what the dimensions are if I don't have grease fittings in the same spot on the chassis side. Attached is a picture of my setup. I apprecite your help.

Thanks

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey Jeff, I'm working on a Mk3 with IRS and am aligning now. My front upper arm looks different from the pic you posted with the dimensions. Can you please tell me what the dimensions are if I don't have grease fittings in the same spot on the chassis side. Attached is a picture of my setup. I apprecite your help.

Thanks

Sorry, I don't have anything for your configuration. Your suspension with Mustang spindles and top mount UCSs is completely different than the Mk4 that I showed so those dimensions are completely irrelevant for you.

Jeff

[CraigS]

dupe

[Porky]

Thanks fellas. I appreciate your taking a look.

Joe

[Dave108]

Thanks Jeff, Ill stop worrying now and set it up to your rec.

Dave

[PMD24]

I'm going to be facing this very soon on my first build and the one thing I'm confused about is in the manual, and in one of the posts above, power steering is mentioned. For the rough alignment are there different dimensions that should be used if you don't have power steering?

[GoDadGo]

I'm going to be facing this very soon on my first build and the one thing I'm confused about is in the manual, and in one of the posts above, power steering is mentioned. For the rough alignment are there different dimensions that should be used if you don't have power steering?

The dimensions for toe and camber settings are the same; however, the caster angle changes a bit.
With the P.S. rack you typically want to run 7-8 degrees compared to the manual rack is set a few degrees lower at 3-4.
I'm at 3.5 and my car drives great with the manual rack.

[Sigurd]

Quick and easy rough alignment that will get you plenty close until you can get it to a pro.

Set tire pressures to 22-24 psi all around
Set ride height; start with 4" front and 4.5" rear
Adjust your upper control arm sleeves like this:



This will equate to approximately 7 degrees positive caster and .5-.75 degree negative camber.

Set toe IN. Using a straight edge placed horizontally across the sidewalls of both front tires measure between both ahead and behind them at the tire's O.D. You want the front measurement to be 1/16"-3/32" less than the rear.


Cheers,
Jeff

UCAlabeled.JPG

Perfect!

Do you have similar numbers for the IRS as well? Type 3 Daytona.

Thanks.

[PMD24]

The dimensions for toe and camber settings are the same; however, the caster angle changes a bit.
With the P.S. rack you typically want to run 7-8 degrees compared to the manual rack is set a few degrees lower at 3-4.
I'm at 3.5 and my car drives great with the manual rack.

GoDadGo, Thank you for the reply. I'm new to this so I realize now that I should have copied Jeff Kleiner's post with the photo showing the dimensions, so it was more clear on I was asking about that. The manual makes reference to power steering relative to the photo shown in the manual with similar dimensions for a rough setting. Jeff provided dimensions also but I'm not sure if that applies to manual, power, or both, so I'm wondering if different dimensions are applied if you don't have power steering. Thanks.

[CraigS]

GoDadGo, Thank you for the reply. I'm new to this so I realize now that I should have copied Jeff Kleiner's post with the photo showing the dimensions, so it was more clear on I was asking about that. The manual makes reference to power steering relative to the photo shown in the manual with similar dimensions for a rough setting. Jeff provided dimensions also but I'm not sure if that applies to manual, power, or both, so I'm wondering if different dimensions are applied if you don't have power steering. Thanks.

'
In Jeff's post #5 he states that the dimensions in his pic will provide roughly 7deg +caster so that is for a power steering car. I don't know what the dimensions are for manual steering but I would do this; Set per Jeff's dimensions and then lengthen the rear dimension by 2 turns of the sleeve and shorten the front sleeve by 2 turns. That will get you moving the caster closer to the 3deg manual steering setting. BTW, getting both sides the same is more important than getting the dimensions exact.

[PMD24]

'
In Jeff's post #5 he states that the dimensions in his pic will provide roughly 7deg +caster so that is for a power steering car. I don't know what the dimensions are for manual steering but I would do this; Set per Jeff's dimensions and then lengthen the rear dimension by 2 turns of the sleeve and shorten the front sleeve by 2 turns. That will get you moving the caster closer to the 3deg manual steering setting. BTW, getting both sides the same is more important than getting the dimensions exact.

Thank you CraigS, I will start there. Glad I asked. 2 turns in opposite directions changes it quite a bit.

Edit - Just tried it. On the DS I got two full turns on the front but on the back I could only get a half turn before running out of adjustment. On the PS the initial adjustment to Jeff's dimensions produced a very different looking setup because the arms are the same and the ball joint co sting is canted toward the rear. So for the PS front there's a lot of thread showing to get to 9.75 plus 2 turns and I can even get down to 8.5 on the rear.

Edit2 - did some searching in the forum and learned that I have to disassemble and trim some parts on the rear adjusters. Will check back in if I run into issues. Apologies for not finding that earlier.

[rich grsc]

You make it sound like you have manual steering, if so, you lengthen the rear and shorten the front. Left & right are mirror images of each other

[PMD24]

You make it sound like you have manual steering, if so, you lengthen the rear and shorten the front. Left & right are mirror images of each other

Hi Rich, thanks for weighing in. Yes, manual steering. I noted that in the 11/8 post above, seeking guidance on Jeff's dimensions for manual steering. CraigS provided guidance on starting with Jeff's dimensions and lengthen the rear and shortening the front by 2 turns. I did that and it was so different than the build manual I was concerned that something was wrong. FFR tech said to use what's in the build manual even for manual steering. So where I am right now is I have trimmed the sleeves and threads and can get to the build manual numbers just fine, but I'm curious why they don't line up well with Jeff's dimensions. I sent a message to Jeff asking for his input. I also asked if he has dimensions for manual steering. Will share whatever I learn here.

[egchewy79]

I didn't have to trim my sleeves/bolts for manual steering. Typically that is only needed to get more caster for power steering. My cobra's up on the lift for the winter but I'll try to get your some rough measurements if I drop it for winter maintenance.

[Jeff Kleiner]

PMD24,
I got your PM but will share here for others as well. The following is what Craig said:

'
...Set per Jeff's dimensions and then lengthen the rear dimension by 2 turns of the sleeve and shorten the front sleeve by 2 turns. That will get you moving the caster closer to the 3deg manual steering setting...

However I think you misunderstood and in your Private Message to me you said:

...One member, CraigS suggested setting it up with your dimensions then two turns in opposite directions to lengthen the front and shorten the rear.

That plus your comment in post #29 stating that you ran out of adjustment on the rear indicates that you were going wrong direction with your changes. To achieve less positive caster you need do as Craig and Rich have said and LENGTHEN the rear and SHORTEN the front.

As to why my dimensions are different from what FFR publishes it is because they are measured from different points. Mine are from the center of the grease zerks and FFR has you approximate the center of the bolt on the cross shaft link.

Hope that helps!

Jeff

[PMD24]

PMD24,
I got your PM but will share here for others as well. The following is what Craig said:



However I think you misunderstood and in your Private Message to me you said:

That plus your comment in post #29 stating that you ran out of adjustment on the rear indicates that you were going wrong direction with your changes. To achieve less positive caster you need do as Craig and Rich have said and LENGTHEN the rear and SHORTEN the front.

As to why my dimensions are different from what FFR publishes it is because they are measured from different points. Mine are from the center of the grease zerks and FFR has you approximate the center of the bolt on the cross shaft link.

Hope that helps!

Jeff

Apologies Jeff, I did lengthen the rear and shorten the front. That was a typo on my part. After running out of adjustment room I read about the trimming required, did that yesterday, and set it up with the measurements described in the build manual. It came out great. I don't have power steering, but as a starting point I set the dimensions as described in the build manual assuming the outcome would produce zerk to zerk measurements that came out close to yours. On the rear it aligns well with your 8.5 zerk to zerk, but on the front, it's way off. The two front dimensions from the build manual are both good, but zerk to zerk is 9 1/8, instead of your 9 3/4. Since the rear compared so closely with yours I got concerned when the front didn't. I've triple checked it and given how big that difference is I thought I better seek help. To you, CraigS, and Rich, thanks for patience with a newbie.

[CraigS]

PMD24 can you provide pics of you front suspension please. From the top looking down and from the front looking rearward at the UCA. I ask because there is something grossly wrong here. There is almost no way you can run out of adjustment on the rear sleeve making it longer. I don't have the #s of FFR experience that Jeff has but have worked through alignments helping 4 guys w/ MkIVs as well as upgrading my MkII to full MkIV front suspension.

[PMD24]

Not in the shop right now but will send those pics. After trimming the sleeves and threads yesterday, I have no issues with running out of adjustment. Made all adjustments in line with measurements in the build manual (for power steering as a starting point), but when I compared that to Jeffs zerk to zerk, I do have 8.5 in the rear, but only 9 1/8 in the front. That concerned me so I reached out for input. Will post the pics later tonight. Thanks for the help.

[rich grsc]

Not in the shop right now but will send those pics. After trimming the sleeves and threads yesterday, I have no issues with running out of adjustment. Made all adjustments in line with measurements in the build manual (for power steering as a starting point), but when I compared that to Jeffs zerk to zerk, I do have 8.5 in the rear, but only 9 1/8 in the front. That concerned me so I reached out for input. Will post the pics later tonight. Thanks for the help.

Complete opposite of what happens. With running a manual steering you should NOT have cut anything. Why do you keep measuring for a power steering setup?

[PMD24]

Passing along photos.
PS UCA 1a.jpg
PS UCA Front.jpg

In the photo looking down, the dimensions on the left (rear) are 7 3/8" from bolt to zerk, and 8.5" zerk to zerk. So, the build manual dimensions line up well with Jeff's 8.5"

On the right side the dimensions are 6 7/8 bolt to bolt, 8 1/4 bolt to zerk, and 9 1/8 zerk to zerk. So the build manual dimensions don't line up well with Jeff's 9 3/4 zerk to zerk. I don't understand why the rear compares so well and the front doesn't compare well at all.

[CraigS]

Thx PMD24. I don't see anything wrong like I thought I might. I think at this point I'd pick a dimension using the zerks since there is less chance of error, set both left and right sides of the car the same, and move on. You could also install the spindle and wheel bearing/hub, disconnect the top of the coilover so you can move the suspension until the LCA is level, and use what ever you have to measure an angle. How close is it to zero camber?

[PMD24]

Thx PMD24. I don't see anything wrong like I thought I might. I think at this point I'd pick a dimension using the zerks since there is less chance of error, set both left and right sides of the car the same, and move on. You could also install the spindle and wheel bearing/hub, disconnect the top of the coilover so you can move the suspension until the LCA is level, and use what ever you have to measure an angle. How close is it to zero camber?

Thanks Craig. Will go with the zerks, set to Jeff's dimensions and do the 2 turns. Since I'm new to this and in learning mode I will also do the spindle and hub and follow up with you on what the camber is.