Don't Be a Hater!

[skullandbones]

Saw an interesting article bashing builders or as the author refers to as "assemblers". I didn't know there was that much hate out there for saying you built your on rod. Personally, I have respect for those who are smart enough to buy their dream. There is a special feeling it gives me to know I put mine together from the frame up. I did it on another roadster way back when but this one was special because of it's history and legend. If I knew what I know now and with my present energy level, I might have second thoughts if I had to make that decision again. It's just nice to know I did it.

Hope this guy chills out or maybe he was just being dramatic to make his article more popular.

WEK.

http://lateral-g.net/is-built-not-bo...ing-the-hobby/

[Mike N]

I didn't think he was really bashing it seemed more like he was poking at the crowd that makes a big deal about saying they built when really they assembled, or partially assembled, their ride. Personally I have immense admiration for those that have the real skills to create something from scratch, and it gives me a sense of satisfaction when I am able to create something at a much lower level. And I think that was his point. The car hobby spans from those that love cars and can write a check to those that can literally create something from nothing. We have that mix on this forum and the other forum and we all get along. Most of the time

[karlos]

Personally I have immense admiration for those that have the real skills to create something from scratch, and it gives me a sense of satisfaction when I am able to create something at a much lower level.

Yep, agreed. I asked one of the welders at work weld up an aluminum bracket (on his own time, of course) to mount my brake fluid reservoir. I provided a drawing and within a matter of a few hours he comes back with the part come to life. Like magic. To me it's a work of art. I'm proud to have it on my car, and I told the welder as much. He seemed surprised by my comment, as to him it's just an everyday thing, a bracket, no big deal. But I admire people who can create something from nothing, as those skills are in short supply compared to the generations that came before.

So I suppose that might be the author's point. Actually creating something is different than taking things that exist and assembling them. But even us assemblers are fewer than we used to be

[skullandbones]

“Built Not Bought” is a slogan that seems to float around a lot in the car industry. This saying is a token of hard work, dedication and knowledge. It’s saying that your car is better than the guy who just came in and bought his car. You went over every nut and bolt, fine tuned the motor, picked out the color of the wheels, and he wrote a boring check for somebody else’s work. But I’m here to tell you that “Built Not Bought” is total bull****.

I think the guy has some hate going on or he's just inept at the way he writes it in his article. Maybe someone who was a builder just rubbed him the wrong way so he's venting. You see that sort of fervor when talking politics or religion. It really doesn't logically fit with this sort of subject matter. I know people of various persuasions that are involved in the hot rod scene; some builders like you mentioned fab everything they put on a car (we have one here in the valley who puts out about 1 car in 1.5 yrs), people who buy a turn key project, and everything in between. However, I've never heard someone ranting about one particular group being "total ******". Even if they are bar bragging, it's fairly innocent in that no one is really hurt by them exaggerating a little. Oh well.

WEK.

[edwardb]

Some kind of issue going on there. There is a difference between buying or building (OK "assembling") but that doesn't make one better than the other. Just different. And why the anger? I personally really enjoy the building aspect, and find people's response at car shows and such to be interesting when they find I did it myself. But that doesn't make mine any better than the one parked next to me that was purchased as it sits, or the owner paid someone to do the work for him. The pride of ownership is there either way.

I don't buy his music analogy either. A trained musician does have a different appreciation for music than someone who only listens. They see, hear, and maybe do on a different level than an amateur. As someone who has had a measure of formal music education, I can say this. But again, one isn't better than the other, just different. And different is OK.

Back in the day when I was pretty deep into the radio control airplane scene, there used to be a similar discussion. The term "scratch built" was used to describe those that didn't build from a kit. But usually those were from plans, so many felt it necessary to separate "plan built" from "scratch built" which meant you designed, drew the plans, etc. I understood and appreciated the difference, but never understood how some felt one was better than the other. They're just different, each reflecting the owner's capabilities, interest, and pride of ownership.

Somehow we seem to have lost the ability to recognize differences without also passing judgement.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Back in the day when I was pretty deep into the radio control airplane scene, there used to be a similar discussion. The term "scratch built" was used to describe those that didn't build from a kit. But usually those were from plans, so many felt it necessary to separate "plan built" from "scratch built" which meant you designed, drew the plans, etc. I understood and appreciated the difference, but never understood how some felt one was better than the other. They're just different, each reflecting the owner's capabilities, interest, and pride of ownership.

Somehow we seem to have lost the ability to recognize differences without also passing judgement.

Same old, same old is alive & well Scratch VS Plan VS Kit VS ARF, Balsa VS Foam, Gas VS Electric VS Glow, Normal size VS Giant Scale, Prop Vs Turbine. For the record I'm AFR/Balsa/Foam/Electric/Normal/Giant scale/Prop flyer.

Enjoyed tweaking the traditionalists when I started to work with gyro stabilization 4 years ago. Now it a common thing. Kind of like sticking a Coyote in a Cobra - Oh the humanity!!!

[skullandbones]

[QUOTE
Enjoyed tweaking the traditionalists when I started to work with gyro stabilization 4 years ago. Now it a common thing. Kind of like sticking a Coyote in a Cobra - Oh the humanity!!![/QUOTE]

Funny!!!

I built a Devin on a Corvette (C2) chassis with a big block Chevy tunnel ram with 2 quads. It had the radiator in the rear with 15 in wide tires and VW size tires in the front. I found a Tiger wind shield to fit it. Had to narrow two Fiat seats to fit the **** pit. Just about everything between the chassis and body had to be modified or built from scratch. I'm sure it was one of a kind. I still don't consider myself an accomplished fabricator (getting better) but somewhat creative. So I'm an example of someone between the scratch builder and the owner who buys to impress. Personally, I think the large majority of individuals are in the middle of the curve. There are almost none of us exactly alike but there is some commonality that helps bind the group. In this community it's FFR. If any body thinks you can assemble one of these projects like a lego set, they are totally misinformed. Most of the people on the forum are aware of these things. So I have made it my job to educate those who haven't been keeping up with the times (regarding the development of the kit car technology). It's a replica is the new answer I have for the kit car questioners. I like the fact that the author of this article questions whether his hobby is being damaged or endangered by the assemblers of kit cars. That indicates there is a trend that has been recognized and shows that the industry is doing quite nicely, thank you.

Note: I forgot to mention something about assembly. If it was a model car to be displayed like we used to do our beloved plastic creations, then you could give the author a little more credit but they are not. The cars have to be functional. Assembly does not cover the fact that these are road worthy vehicles that may have to be built to a higher level to function in the environment they were meant to operate in (AX, track, etc). They actually function similarly to the original designs or better in many cases.

WEK.

[2bking]

I see all of this as who is the smartest/richest in the room. The smart guy builds from scratch while the rich guy buys what he wants and doesn't have to get his hands dirty. The author is neither smart or rich so he just pokes at the whole scene and bashes. We all have different likes, dislikes, talents, abilities and resources. The common thing shared here is the enjoyment of the final product of a high performance car. I built mine because that was what I wanted to do with my spare time. I enjoyed putting some of my talents to use and working with my hands. I'm very comfortable and happy with a file in my hand smoothing an edge or removing a burr. Is my roadster better than another one? In some way yes and other ways no. Do I care? No, its mine and I enjoyed the journey! Could I have built it from scratch? Definitely yes but it would have taken much longer and the end product would have had a lot of the same parts as the kit uses. Because someone (FFR) does the engineering needed to produce a kit doesn't make the assembled product lesser of value than another. I'll bet any of the auto manufactures could produce a kit to assemble one of their cars (legal problems aside) and the finished product would be of similar value to the production line version.

From my working career I met a lot of engineers in different positions that I admired and were much smarter (think IQ) than me but some couldn't do my job because they lacked the talent. I liked my job and didn't want theirs either. Building these cars have similarity in the builders. Some solve their problems with money and others build/make what is needed. I think the author should build one of these before writing about it.

[6t8dart]

I definitely have opinions on this, because I have been there and done that with cars. I had built my 68 dart from an undriveable pile to a respectable street machine, I literally stripped and painted every square inch of that car, built every single component, yes, engine, transmission, and rear end too. I did all the bodywork and paint, interior, electrical, etc. I built a car that requires tremendous amounts of fabrication, because the aftermarket just didn't make anything that fit a Mopar A-body. I spent 9 years building that car, countless hours in the garage. I was then afraid to drive it and get it dirty, I didn't dare drive it to work for fear of some jackass door dinging me. I took it to a car show and had a rich ******* park his "bought" cuda three feet from me in a park with plenty of room for all cars. I ended up getting in an argument with him trying to get him to move his car a couple feet over. He didn't care and walked away. I don't have as much respect for people that write quarter million dollar checks to a builder like Foose.

I am not saying that all people are like that, but if you don't put a little sweat equity into your car, you don't have as much respect for it.

I sold the dart last year. My next car absolutely beat my Dart in every performance category, but I didn't build it, I bought a 2015 Scat Pack Challenger that I drive every day. I do have more fun driving it, I have had people door ding it, scratch it, and a parking curb nearly tore off the front fascia (it is an inch lower than a std challenger).

I was itching to build again, but I did not want to fabricate every little detail for the next several years. I rekindled my itch for a Factory Five. I am relieved that I can assemble the car without any major fabrication. I know that I may make some minor mods, but this time I have a support group of thousands, a build manual, lots of vendors, and when I'm done, I will have a serious high performance vehicle.

I have more respect for someone who builds an F5 because they always wanted one, but have very little experience building cars. As far as I'm concerned, anyone that picks up a wrench and tries, deserves tons of respect. I don't care what they are building, custom, kit, mods on a modern car, etc, if you at least try, I respect you.

I do understand that there is a place in this hobby for people that buy a completed car or pay someone to build one for them also. I have a friend that pays a local shop to build his classic Mustang, between his 60 hour a week job and autistic son, he does not have time to do it himself.

The great thing about the hobby is that the mix of people show up to car shows, and mostly get along. Yes, there will always be those rich jerks that show up and think they are better than you because they paid for a car to be perfect, and they usually are perfect, but I still appreciate the car.

[Mike N]

I took it to a car show and had a rich ******* park his "bought" cuda three feet from me in a park with plenty of room for all cars. I ended up getting in an argument with him trying to get him to move his car a couple feet over. He didn't care and walked away.

That's the guy the article is directed at. I bet he would proudly wear a shirt that said bought not built. As long as it was a custom embroidered designer shirt.

[edwardb]

That's the guy the article is directed at. I bet he would proudly wear a shirt that said bought not built. As long as it was a custom embroidered designer shirt.

That reminds me of when I was parked at the London Cobra Show a couple years ago, and the guy parked in front of me had on a shirt with big writing "Made in a factory by professionals not in my garage." I think it's a pretty common shirt, so maybe some of you know what brand it was. I tried to strike up a conversation, but no luck. I'm sure he saw mine was a Factory Five. I just don't get some people.

[Kalstar]

Ok. Have to pipe in. I have many different cars....classics to exotics. My GTM in my eyes is an ultra exotic. Problem is in a car group I ride with they all have ultra high end cars say for a few. The guys with the Lambos and Ferarris appreciate the GTM for its beauty and ability, they care not who or where it was built. The loud mouths that put the car down as "just a kit car" or make remarks like "how much duck tape did you use"? Are all the C7 and new gen Viper owners. They seem very happy to crap on the car. The cruises I bring the Ferrari they say what is up with the GTM, not running? Truth be told, the GTM is far more reliable then the Ferrari, out performs it in every way (except for sound) and gets more looks. There is a great reward in customizing a car to your liking and even more reward if you can turn your own wrench. One of the loud mouths put his car in the shop for over a week to replace wheels and tires because he had a buyer for his stock wheels. If he had his wheels sold then why not pull the car in his garage (which he has, I have been to his house) and swap them himself? What this Author is missing is many of the bought not build look down upon the guy that brings life to his creation. Anyone can go buy an new Viper/Z06 but not everyone can replace the water pump when it blows or swap brake pads for track day or diagnos an issue. They need service techs and warrenties to justify their hobbies. I very much appreciate these marvels, they truly are magnificent machines but when it comes right down to it, it's not about the car but the driver of the car that makes you like or dislike it.

[carbon fiber]

I kinda get the guys point, but there's no need to be ugly, imo. Being a "from scratch" fab guy myself, I do hold more respect for more skills involved. I'm going to give more respect to a scratch fab job than an "assembled" job. Just like there's more respect in this community for "building/assembling" than buying a vehicle already built. I don't see it as a competition. There's no need to bash the other guy, we can all have fun. But there is a night and day difference between assembling and building from scratch. (Flameproof Suit Engaged)

[Kalstar]

Carbon, the amount of fabrication in these cars are huge. These are not like the 1:18 scale models we snapped or glued together as kids. The Camaro I rebuilt (Blown engine/bad trans/rot...ect..) Was far easier then making things work in the GTM. The Ebrake parts are discontinued and needed to be made. The adapter plates didn't fit due to the short nose trans so it needed to be fabed, the shift linkage was not corrected, needed to be fabed........lots more that I care not to write about! Did you know the GTM roll bar is welded on last and hence every car is different by as much as 1/2 in or that the handlaid bodies are no were exact (3/4 of an inch longer on the passanger side then on the drivers) in my case. Someone that assembles a car...like say a Noble, completed car comes in, put in the engine and bam you have a completed car. F5R has never been or will never be a snap together kit. I like all cars and it doesn't matter who made it but if you turned your own wrench and spent countless hours figuring how to make something work then you are way more then an assembly guy.

Btw I know this is the Roadster forum but the discussion applies to all of the Factory Five cars.

[carbon fiber]

I understand what I said will upset some, hence the flameproof suit comment. I still stand by what I said. Fabbing a few parts and correcting issues in something that already exists is way easier than starting from scratch. Always will be. Again I'm not putting down anyone, just giving credit to the people with the skill to make something from nothing. (hence the "not a competition" comment. (Flameproof Suit Still Engaged) #not hatin'

[Kalstar]

Carbon did you see the Falcon F7, supercar built from scratch. Really impressive in every way. The press is murdering it, simply beating it to death. The reverse of what this author wrote is in full display. Someone that built something from scratch is being killed by those that question his ability to create something special. It is the authors feelings that that building something is equal to buying something. Seems your thoughts should be the polar opposite. If you create something from nothing yet bolt it to something existing then you are in fact just an assembler.

[carbon fiber]

The author is talking about another article involving motorcycles. That's where the conversation stems from. I am saying built is more impressive than bought. As for the F7, It's the styling of the car that's getting murdered, not the craftsmanship. I didn't like the styling either, it looked like a modernized Ferrari 328. Styling is COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE. The styling sucks, but it deserves major props for craftsmanship. I'm talking about the higher skill level involved in scratch fabrication, and having respect for it, that's all. I know some will take what I said the wrong way, just like I feel you are now. I'm not putting you down, or insulting the fab work you or anyone else has done on their car/kit car. All I'm saying is there's more respect deserved for the higher skills involved. (In any arena) As far as creating something to bolt to something else, that's what I'm doing to the GTM, yes. But I've created airplanes from absolute scratch and I'm also starting a car project that will be completely from scratch.(body/chassis/etc.) So I feel like I can talk from the point of scratch fab AND assembly/building/whatever. I've done both. Me saying that scratch fab is more skillful than assembling/building a component car isn't any different than you stating that there's more skill involved in building vs. buying new. Please understand that I'm not putting you or anyone else down. If you're taking what I said that way it's on you.

[aarvig]

I think the author is way out in left field on this topic. He is trying to make an issue where there is none. Worse yet, he uses Jay Leno as an example of the bought crowd. Jay Leno can afford ANYTHING...which is why most of us build a 30-50K Factory Five, because we CAN'T afford anything. If I had 80-90 grand to dump on a prebuilt cobra I would be in the bought crowd...most of us don't that's why we build, plus I would also argue that we love building as much as driving.

[Raceral]

Those people at Lateral G are on a different planet. I have hung out there for about 10 years. Those guys are the Foose types... although Chip I suspect is nicer. Nelson racing engines supplies a lot of powerplants for those guys.