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Thread: Stix's Coupe Build - Striped Steel

  1. #1

    Stix's Coupe Build - Striped Steel

    (This is a copy of the post I created over at FFcars, but I know I'll be asking a ton of questions and getting input along the way from both communities so I wanted to post here too.)

    Well, it's fast approaching so I wanted to kick off the build thread.

    Let me first say to Factory Five: Please, please offer a 50/50 sale! I'll put in my order the first day I know about it!! I'll take delivery at any time and have the money in hand. I can also keep a secret if you let me in on the deal tomorrow

    Ok... now that I have that over with. Let me introduce my build:

    As you can see, I've poured lots of money and time (kidding) into an early prototype by ordering a die cast model and wrapping it in 3M brushed steel vinyl.

    On a serious note, here's what I have in mind for my build:
    Type 65 Coupe Base Kit
    Coyote engine
    AEM Infinity control
    Tremec something (TKO-600, T-56, or TR-6060)
    New 2015 IRS
    Heat and A/C
    Wilwoods at some point

    The engine build may start out as a F150 engine just to get started due to funds but I have some lofty goals.
    There are other things I have in mind to do to the kit as an overly ambitious engineer, but those things will be revealed in time to keep everyone guessing. My idea is to fully stretch my abilities, learn a lot of new things along the way, and keep the build pretty unique even among the kit car crowd.
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Welcome; that all sounds like as good a plan as any!

  3. #3
    I posted an updated on the 'other forum' but I know no everyone jumps between the two and I know I'll be asking for advice along the way for anyone willing to offer it.

    Although FFR is now offering a deal on wheels and tires which means the 50/50 sale probably isn't going to happen right away, overtime allowed me the funds to get this earlier.

    IRS setup from a 2016 Mustang GT with the Performance Package. The seller also had it listed for the price of the base Mustang parts so effectively I got everything for half of what the differential by itself would cost new! At 5k miles, everything is practically new. Add in that I can go-cart with the stock rear brakes and sell them later, and I'm pretty happy with the find.

    3.73 Torsen is the first confirmed detail of my build
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #4
    3.7's are a great ratio too!
    I had some in my last Cobra, they assisted with tire wear beautifully

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    assisted with tire wear beautifully
    I'm taking that line -nice.
    Jonas
    _____________________

    Check out our build blog - https://vjjfactoryfive.wordpress.com/
    FFR Type-65 Coupe 720
    London Ontario Canada

  6. #6
    Not to "let the coyote out of the bag", but I found an engine!



    It's from a 2015 F-150 so it has the newer cast heads, the intake with charge motion, I think the upgraded oil pump gears, and other minor changes. Nearly everything is shared with the 2015 Mustang GT and what isn't can be easily swapped.

    Since I found it for so little cost, I expect a few upgraded parts will be showing up for it over the course of my build.

    More parts for a kit I don't have yet haha
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #7
    Time for another pun: Two heads are better than one!


    Since I got the F-150 engine for such a low price, I took advantage of a Black Friday sale and purchased these GT350 heads. I'm still lower than my initial budget of a base 5.0 crate motor, but this should give me a good bump in performance and let me sell the stock heads.

    Now to let my bank account take a rest.
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 12:12 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    You may find that the stock rear brakes are fine. I am surprised how well they are working for me and mine are not the PP version.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  9. #9
    Q4,

    Not being familiar with the new set up, does that whole IRS cradle mount into the frame or do you dismantle that?

    Thanks,

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  10. #10
    @CraigS: I expect that you're correct with the stock brakes being sufficient. I think the performance pack rear brakes are the same as the normal setup with the sliding calipers. I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a 'square' tire setup with the same on all four corners which will shift even more of the demand up front and leave the rears with excess capacity depending on the master cylinder size I use.

    @John Dol: The setup you see will be disassembled and used for some of the parts. Salvage yards can remove everything you see with just a couple bolts so they sell it cheaper than the components. I'll sell off or ditch the subframe, springs, shocks, and some of the other stuff and only keep the diff, axles, spindles, hubs, and brakes.

  11. #11
    With the continued help of TMScrogins on ffcars (and at the same time inadvertently pulling him into a headache with CARiD's very poor handling of advertised pricing), I now have a AEM Infinity 710 and Coyote layover harness sourced from JEGS.

    I was also able to take delivery of the engine I bought out of state:


    My best worker has been tireless at the bench figuring things out:


    I'm now trying to figure out the wiring and how the F150 engine harness compares to the crate motor harness since I know there are extra leads and connectors that exist at the moment. I'm not sure if I'll have to end up buying the crate motor engine harness or what at this point so more time will go into research.

    I figure that I'll do my best to understand the wiring and electrical side while I have a complete, working engine and then do the tear down for the mechanical changes.

    Also, soon I'll be posting some questions I have with the fuel system since that's all new to me to assemble from scratch.
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace

  12. #12
    Here are some questions I hope one of you can answer regarding the fueling:

    1. Does the Gen 3 Coupe still use the 87-93 fuel tank?

    2. Is there any preference to a setup where the fuel pump is in the passenger, taller part of the tank vs. a 03+ Cobra style that has it in the thinner, yet centered position since I think the tank size and shape is still nearly identical?

    3. Does anyone have experience with the Aeromotive Phantom or Phantom Flex setup? I ask because it seems to be a reasonable compromise to having a sump system. https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/product/phantom-flex/
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  13. #13
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  14. #14
    Some updates on the fueling:
    1. Factory Five tech responded that they do use the same tank. From researching, most reproduction tanks only say they're good for up to E15 or E20. I need to see what might be needed to ensure E85 is ok in the tanks.
    2, 3. Looks like both Trevor on the FFCars forum and CraigS have solutions for cavitation. Aeromotive also sells a A1000 pump in a 03-04 Cobra style tank that can work, but is $$$

    Also.... holy bundles of wires! This covers the engine harness and AEM layover.


    As usual, questions at the end...
    The plug on the left of the image is the one from the 2011-2014 Coyote crate motor. The one on the right is from the stock 2015 F150 engine harness. Can anyone verify if the 2015+ crate motor matches the left plug, right plug, or is a third option?


    The AEM Infinity harness uses the 2011-2014 harness plug which is how I found out the difference. Ford doesn't seem to have a part number for the 2015+ crate motor harness for some reason (at least I couldn't find it).
    I'll need to wire up the intake charge motion actuators somehow and figure out what the power and signal requirements will be to take advantage of them here and if I ever upgrade to the GT350 intake manifold.
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:05 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  15. #15
    Trick Tool Maker, Super Moderator Hankl's Avatar
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    Raise your right hand and say after me,

    "I (State your name), do swear/affirm, that upon acceptance of this "Revered Coupe Jacket", will willingly subject myself to all manner of frustration and abrasion that my FFR Type 65 will provide. I further pledge that any and all fellow Coupe builders will have free reign in using the cash available in my wallet as they see fit to improve my build plan. I will not look down upon our fellow Roadster builders, but rather take pity on those not talented enough to build a race car with a roof, So Help Me God!"



    It is my pleasure to present you with the "Revered Coupe Jacket", Here's your sign!!



    Hankl
    “If you didn’t have enough time to do it right the first time. How come you always have time to go back and do it again?” FFR1000186CP

    Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
    Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you take the wall with you.

  16. #16
    Thanks for the jacket - my old one was getting really worn out!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  17. #17
    Small update with more questions in hand. I removed the F150 harness that has a different plug setup and extra connections to the auto transmission I don't need and have replaced it with the M-12508-M50 2011-2014 Coyote crate engine harness. This will mean I'll take care of the charge motion stuff at a later time with an output on the Infinity.

    I had to move what I believe is a inline capacitor to the passenger side head from the 2015 driver side position, but that was straightforward. There are a couple things I'm unsure of though:

    #1 should be the oil pressure sensor plug for the Mustang, #3 and #4 are the F150 oil pressure sensor and variable sensor/solenoid for the oil cooler, but....
    What does #2 go to?
    What sensor is #5 with the orange wire group coming from it?

    Also, what is this plug for on the driver side back of the engine for 2011-2014 crates?


    Does anyone have a wiring schematic of either the 2011-2014 or 2015+ harnesses? That will keep me from having to ask all these questions here in the hope that someone might know.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  18. #18
    Quick update on what I found for future reference to those looking:
    #1 is the oil level sensor plug for the 2011-2014 pans and I assume 2015+ pans. The F150 pans do not appear to have this sensor for some reason.
    #2 is the oil pressure sensor plug that is on the GT but not the F150 (see above post)
    #3 and #4 can be easily swapped for the Mustang adapter M-6880-M501 that comes with the sensor. Alternatively a remote filter option for the second gen Coyote block.
    #5 turns out to be a block heater element and plug. This was a Montana truck which explains why it was installed

    I'm still struggling to find what the back plug went to. Anyone able to look at the rear of their 2011-2014 harness and install?
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  19. #19
    Fueling fun below. Hopefully it'll give people extra ideas or a reference for later.

    Since the kits are designed around the stock 87-93 fuel tanks, I decided that I wanted to start with that and potentially upgrade to a fuel cell if I got into tracking the car, wanted a larger capacity, or had starvation issues. This put me on the path of a Aeromotive Phantom Flex kit install since I also wanted the ability to run E85 and have enough flow for my build should I get bored with a NA motor and wanted to go forced induction.

    It seemed almost a shame to cut right into a new tank, but I had to cut a 3-1/4" hole for the pump. This is almost the same size as the outer diameter of the stock fuel sender lock ring which posed a problem using the recommended hole saw. It would 'rock' side to side and then catch so I gave up on it after nicking the tank finish a few times. I drilled a bunch of radial holes and then did a quick pass around with a cutoff tool and here's what I got.


    You can see the 'sump' in the picture above through the hole, but here's a clear view:


    Since it was spot welded in place and I didn't think I could get it out even if I drilled out the welds, I worked around it. First, here's what I was trying to fit.


    You can see that it's really designed for a continuously flat section of the tank but our stock tank is either really shallow or has both the welded sump and an angled section. To get this to fit, I decided to leave out the soft plastic base, bend the hanger to look similar to the stock sending unit, and then cut the foam to conform to the tank bottom and with the sump. This is how everything looked before installing it:


    An inside view of the foam pressed against the tank bottom and slit to work with the sump


    I'm hoping this will be a good compromise between the low cost of the stock tank vs. a fuel cell but take care of any starvation issues, fuel aeration with a return setup, and be able to use in a fuel cell upgrade later on with the soft plastic base without having to re-buy parts of the Phantom Flex kit.
    All installed:
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  20. #20
    After fixing a few leaks with a couple -8AN Summit brand fittings (no leaks with their -6AN fittings though), I got the pressure regulator to hold at 55psi with atmospheric reference

    I rigged up some of the connections, added two stubby exhaust pipes to hold the left and right O2 sensors, and hooked up the battery.

    In the AEM software, I had the firing order updated for the 2015 F150 instead of the standard configuration 2011+ Mustang GT. It was rather painless once I got to the right menu...and boy are there a lot of menus and tabs. I also dropped the rev limited to 5000 from the 7400 default just to make sure with no rotating mass (flexplate only) it didn't spin too fast.

    First start!!!
    Well, starting on a pallet but no fuel leaks while running, a stable initial idle, and a pretty good sound all things considered.


    It ran really lean at 17:1 to 18:1 because I had the VVT disabled and the VE tables were off from no intake and no real exhaust, but I'm impressed it ran so well first try and open loop.

    Now that the fueling and engine electronics are confirmed working, time to tear down everything and add some 'go fast' parts!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  21. #21
    Best of luck with the build, looking good so far

  22. #22
    Well done, that's a huge step forwards getting the donk up and running!
    Pretty responsive too by the sound of it!

  23. #23
    *Internal discussion*
    Go forged, it's cool. No, I don't need the expense. What if I boost later? Unlikely. Do you want to rebalance everything or do this twice? Umm....

    *clicks purchase*
    Oops


    I've been in contact with Perpetual Balance near me in Arlington, WA, and once I get my harmonic balancer I'll be ready to go. The owner is incredibly easy to talk with (at least for me as an engineer) and walked me through each step he'll take when I visited a few weeks back. He took just over an hour of his time showing me how to weigh rods, his checklists and weight sheets, the balancers he uses, etc, but wouldn't accept a dime when I offered to compensate him for his time.

    I'll try to get pictures of the process which I expect will at least let one cat out of the bag with my build
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  24. #24
    The fit check has started and to my relief, the crank doesn't have any interference!
    It seems someone squished my coyote crank flat

    Coyodoo?


    The piston crowns are a little close to the head. Yikes!
    Last edited by q4stix; 07-22-2017 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Photobucket Image Replace
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  25. #25
    After a long delay of life taking up time and Ford being coy with their balancing information on the GT350 crank, I was finally able to make some more progress.

    Phrases like "how did you get that?", "I'll have to talk with upper management", "They're stonewalling us", etc. all came from those I reached out to for information. After a fair amount of persistence, I was finally provided the values I needed for proper balancing. The big secret is that there isn't a real secret but everywhere I've mentioned what I'm doing, I'm called crazy so I guess there isn't a big market for the information. Anyway, now to pictures...

    Here the bob weights are already measured and clamped to the crank and we put on the ATI balancer which would be needed to offset some of the flywheel and clutch component weight later on. He already hand balanced all of the pistons and rods (big and small ends) before I arrived to match their weights.


    This is Mark. Mark is awesome! He runs Perpetual Balance in Arlington, WA and was a huge help telling me what issues we might run into along the way, how to prepare for them, examples of what other people have done (choosing components that affect things later, are too cheap and heavy and require tungsten inserts, dual clutch issues, etc). He's professional, is willing to talk once he know's you're not wasting his time, and was great to work with. I'd HIGHLY recommend him to anyone in the Washington area. On top of that, he let me watch each step, take pictures, and ask things along the way which is not something he would usually do for customers (they just drop stuff off and pick it up once complete). Having said that, he did mention various one-off projects where customers were more involved. Back to the pictures... this is the first drilling to remove weight


    Once the crank was balanced individually, we added the flywheel and re-balanced by only modifying the flywheel. Same for adding in the components for the twin disk clutch (minus the friction disks since they rest on the transmission input shaft).


    Skipping to the end, you can see Mark cleans as he goes, protects the crank and components by covering the journals while he drills and uses a vacuum, then visual inspects and re-greases the supports before re-measuring. This is the last drill operation after we attached the pressure plate and balanced that. Since there was so little imbalance at the front, he only drilled a single dimple at the end so he didn't go too far early on and have to 'chase' the imbalance later.


    Here's an example of the outputs from the balance machine. We used an older Italian made machine instead of his newer one for ease of access putting on and taking off components as well as allowing us to weld on the pressure plate while still on the machine. The newer one didn't allow that but ended up giving the same final values. What you see is front and rear imbalance, the angle (out of 100, instead of out of 360 degrees), and the gram*inch imbalance. This particular image was after our third spin with all the components on. It took a small bead of filler metal on the pressure plate, another spin, and the dimple on the front mentioned above followed by a final check spin to be complete from here.


    All in all, the results were something less than 3.5 gram*inches imbalance on the crank itself when finished and only 1.4 gram*inches front and rear for the entire rotating assembly with flywheel, mid plate for the clutch, and the pressure plate! Considering Nascar aims for under 6 gram*inches, I consider this a win!



    Now I have some more Infinity and cam phaser issues to think about and try to resolve, but then it will be on to either the kit order or the engine tear down.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  26. #26
    I just did a thing...
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  27. #27
    guess we know which one you chose!

    congrats, now its getting real

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  28. #28
    Well, the first email I received after I ordered did say "Congratulations on your Hot Rod kit order..." which made my heart jump a bit!

    The order is for a Gen 3 base kit with IRS, front Wilwoods only, and a few minor options like the GPS gauges. Nothing too crazy with the order itself
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  29. #29
    I did a local pickup and delivery before my delivery since I've had a mill on my 'want list' for a while and not just for the car. I was put in contact with a friend of a friend of a coworker and score a really great deal on a Bridgeport aka Mr. B. Portly for my garage. It was an old CNC setup that was surplussed which came with most of the handles and dials to convert it back to a manual mill. The head was recently rebuilt and it has ball-screws on all 3 axes so I can convert it back to NC easily at a later date without that additional expense.

    With lots of road construction around, my buddy wanted to put it in the bed of his truck instead of it bouncing around on a trailer so we got a little creative. Nothing like some good ingenuity and mechanical advantage of a high lifting pallet jack

    Our lifting setup.


    At the 40"+ height of the bed of the stock height F-350 4x4


    On 4x6's to lead into the truck


    Delrin rods to roll the pallet which made it fairly easy to move; ratchet straps prevented it from rolling back off or into the front of the bed


    All loaded and ready to drive!


    Mr. B Portly's new home


    The guy selling it was so confused when we didn't show up with a trailer. After, one comment we got was "Holy sketch town Batman!" but the reality was that everything was pretty stable and we didn't have much worry about it falling.

    Not bad for $600!!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  30. #30
    With word from Factory Five that my coupe is/was on the ground ready to go on a truck and an email out to Stewart to ask for updated information, I'm nearly positive that Mike Everson's picture taken last week shows my coupe. I only had the cutouts marked so of the three in his pictures, that means the one with the arrow would be mine. Come on delivery date, excitement is building!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  31. #31
    After many, many shipping delays, it's finally here! Woohoo!

    Even though I live in a cul-de-sac, the driver was able to make it in, do a 10+ point turn, and back right up to my driveway.


    As soon as he pulled in it started to rain, but after 30 min or so and by the time he was ready to hoist up the car, the rain stopped. It was time to fly!


    The unloading went smoothly and I was happy with the process at my house with Stewart Transport. I can honestly say that I was disappointed with them not conveying how many shipping delays there were and the fact that I had to be the one calling to hear they'd have a truck there the next week only to call two weeks later and get told the same thing. In the end I'd still recommend them, but I wish they would have been more proactive with their communication and telling me info instead of me having to call every two weeks after the stated Sept. 15 pickup date just to get an update. Enough of that...

    Now inventory begins and then I can start looking at the changes I already have in mind to measure for feasibility. I'll need pull the body off and figure out where to put it for a while. I'm ready to get started!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  32. #32
    Congrats on the new addition!!

    John
    Making progress on the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Fast EZ EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  33. #33
    Senior Member Straversi's Avatar
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    Congratulations. Looking forward to following this build. Can't wait to see what you and Mr. B Portly have in mind.
    -Steve
    MK IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build

  34. #34
    Congrats on the delivery. Look forward to following along.
    Did Stewart give any explanation as to what caused the delays? I had a vey positive experience with them and it came really fast but I have seen a few other complaints as of late about the deliveries.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
    PHIL 4:13 INSTAGRAM - @scottscobra

  35. #35
    Congratulations on the delivery. Maybe I could see it in person someday, in the mean time I need to get my roadster done by next summer. Hope you are not finished before me.

    Paul
    MKIV #9122 Ordered kit 5/24/17 received kit 8/11/17 MK4 Base kit +, Coyote gen2, T-56, 2015 IRS 3.31, 17" Halibrand replicas w/Nitto NT555 G2, Withby Motorcars power brake kit W/Wilwood pedals, 04 Cobra front brakes, 15 Mustang rear brakes with mods, power steering.

  36. #36
    Thanks everyone!

    @wareaglescott: I think that's part of the issue, I was never felt I was given a real explanation. It may be one that caused a couple day delay which I can fully expect due to the nature of shipping via truck and the number of kits on each truck, but nothing that could add up to a 45 day delay. I'm hoping this was a one-off occurrence since I've heard so many good things about them, just felt it needed to be mentioned due to the magnitude of the delay.

    @Paul2STL: You're welcome to come visit if you can make the trip up to Marysville. I'm sure you will be done loooong before me
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  37. #37
    Junior Member
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    Livermore, CA
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    My car was on the same truck and there were a number of different "reasons" that came up. First was they ended up picking up kits only going to the midwest the week mine was suppose to be picked up (1.5 week delay). Then the truck got stuck in Michigan because they couldn't unload it for some reason (1 week delay). Then the driver got delayed on the east coast due to traffic and some more due to limited hours he was allowed to drive (only gets X many hours per X many days which is understandable). Then during a truck wash his windshield was almost "blown out" and got water all in the cab, that was a Friday and had to wait till Monday to find out they didn't have parts so it was just "temporarily fixed" before heading on his way. Last delay before getting to me was that a drop off scheduled ahead of me the guy was not available (it's hard to be available when you have no idea when you need to be). I only know all of this because I kept calling Stewart. I wish they had been better at communicating so I didn't have to keep calling but I will give credit that each time Jolene at Stewart was very straightforward (as far as I could tell) and friendly.

    In the end is was fine, the kit was delivered without any damage and the driver did a great job. If I had to do it again I'd still go with Stewart, I'd just lower my expectations on the expected delivery date.

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