What does 818 mean?

[thebeerbaron]

I know it means 818kg, about 1800lbs. But how to express that in terms I can understand?

1800lbs is approximately 12 kegs of beer. I can see that and it looks delicious.

But how much car do you get for 1800lbs?

(I'm sorry this is a little hard to read, the forum won't allow me to make it pretty)

Curb 	Manufacturer	Model		HP	Year	Price 	Link
Weight							(2011 US dollars)
1212	Caterham	Roadsport	170-210	2011	40489	http://www.uscaterham.com/showroom/roadsport.html
1290	Lotus		Elan		100	1962		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=94424	
1350	Ariel		Atom 3		200	2011	49980	http://www.arielatom.com/specs/atom-3-specs	
1543	Austin-Healey	Sprite		46	1961		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=55528	
1543	Ford		Fiesta		40	1979		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=42086	
1631	MG		Midget		71	1974		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=63668	
1731	TVR		Vixen		89	1966	27494	http://auto-specs.zercustoms.com/T/TVR/1966-tvr-vixen-specifications.html	
1775	Ford		Escort		83	1972		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=86515	
1786	Saab		Sonett III	75	1970		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=34144	
1786	Volkswagen	GTI		108	1976		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=43054	
1786	Peugot		205 GT		80	1983		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=40095	
1797	Triumph		Spitfire	71	1975		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=29469	
1808	Smart		Pure Coupe	70	2011	12490	http://www.smartusa.com/models/pure-coupe/specifications.aspx	
1808	Volkswagen	Karmann-Ghia	34	1963		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=128524	
1819	Yugo		GV		55	1985	8166	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_Koral
1862	Toyota		iQ		67	2011	16070	http://www.toyota-europe.com/cars/new_cars/iq/fullspecs.aspx
1890	Honda		CRX Si		91	1985		http://kumo.swcp.com/synth/crx/specs.html	
1940	Fiat		X1/9		74	1972		http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=42020	
1980	Datsun		Roadster 2000	135	1969		http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/1967-datsun-roadster-article.html	
1980	Ferrari		Dino 206	160	1968		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dino_(automobile)	
2010	Lotus		Elise R		189	2011	47250	http://www.lotuscars.com/en/lotus-elise-specification

I know the list is rather arbitrary and I threw in a couple of silly cars just for fun, but this post does have a few points.

• It's been a long time since there was a fun, streetable 1800lb car for sale. (The median year of manufacture on this list is 1975*)
• The CRX and 205GT must have been made out of fairy dust and unicorn farts, because they are amazingly light. Yet they have metal bodies, glass, and full interiors. Wow.
• 225hp in a 1800lb car has not been done by any sane manufacturer.
• Lightweight almost always means older. If the car is modern and light weight, it is expensive.
• The cars we think of as light are pigs. Some examples in the >2000lb club:
  • MGB
  • RX-7
  • 240Z
  • Miata
  • 914

Are you excited yet?


*yes, and that number is completely arbitrary. If I dropped the iQ and the Smart and chose an older Caterham, Atom, or Elise model, I could manipulate that number down a bit. But I'm just having fun.

[riptide motorsport]

Cool!

[keys2heaven]

• 225hp in a 1800lb car has not been done by any sane manufacturer.

Is persistent eye-twitching a symptom of insanity? That might explain a lot.

[Kalstar]

The 818..........

Area code for Los Angeles. Also known as a code of silence.

Ok, not on subject.....Back to car talk.

[FFRWRX]

The 818..........
Also known as a code of silence.

As long as it isn't the cone-of-silence..........that thing never works.

[thebeerbaron]

Is persistent eye-twitching a symptom of insanity? That might explain a lot.

Dammit Jim, I'm a brewer, not a doctor! I can't make that sort of diagnosis, but I think that repeatedly singing a catchy little ditty like "The I Told You So Song" might also be a symptom.

[Pierre-Alexandre]

My 96 Toyota Paseo weight 2150 lb and it's fun to drive as hell. Even if it only has 100hp. That car stick to the road lie y hand on my girlfriend butt (that means a lot) So with 1800 lb and aloost 300 hp that will be a blast to drive.

[Dave Smith]

There is rapidly growing a list of excellent inside jokes with this car. Eye Twitch, I told you so song, A whole list of Topless jokes that cant be printed here...

275-325+ hp in an 1800 lb car with a FFR rigid chassis, rockin 4-corner Konis, mid-engine layout, and good lines... Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

I dont want to eat, I cant sleep, and all I want to do is drop the hammer on this car and drive around Porsches.

[keys2heaven]

There is rapidly growing a list of excellent inside jokes with this car. Eye Twitch, I told you so song, A whole list of Topless jokes that cant be printed here...

275-325+ hp in an 1800 lb car with a FFR rigid chassis, rockin 4-corner Konis, mid-engine layout, and good lines... Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

I dont want to eat, I cant sleep, and all I want to do is drop the hammer on this car and drive around Porsches.

Dave,

Haven't seen any other posts dedicated to this, but I eagerly anticipated and watched the 'Mega-Kits' episode of Speedmakers last night. Wow, they did an awesome job of highlighting Factory Five! I thought, at first, that you were going to only get a 1/3 of the program, but they kept coming back to FF after the other two segments. Didn't tally up the minute count, but well over 1/2 of the show was dedicated to FF. And very nice to put some faces with some names I 've been reading about.

My wife absolutely loves the MK4, but I told her we're going to take baby steps. Get my feet wet on the '818' and see where that takes us.

[Someday I Suppose]

Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

Dave, that right there needs to the tagline in the first ad for this thing. :-)

[FFRWRX]

Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

Yup, perfect way to put it.

[riptide motorsport]

yep I agree. great tag line..................Steven

[Jon A]

Interesting post. I would love to see the 818 (or the GTM, Roadster or '65 Coupe for that matter) driven around Topgear's test track by the Stig (some say...). Below is a copy of Topgear's leaderboard that I found on the web and copied into Excel. If you look at the power to weight ratios for the cars on the list, you will see that a 325 BHP 818 will be better than everything on the list. I am confident that a properly set-up and well sorted 818 could get around the track faster than everything else out there.

I can't wait to see someone build a dedicated track car out of the 818. It will be a force to be reckoned with! ... I just wish I could figure out a way to build one without selling my Mk III!! Imagine the press (and prestige) FFR will get if they produce a Hypercar slayer that can be built in a garage for $15K +/-!!!!!

-Jon A.

[Kc_Shane]

Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

I would buy that shirt

FFR designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

[Evan78]

Jon A: I think you misinterpreted that chart. The last column is how many HP is available for each pound of car. In other words, the 818 has .18 HP for every pound, while the Gumpert has .30 HP per pound, which is a superior ratio. Not sure why someone did it that way. The common way I see it expressed is LBS/HP (in the US) and HP/TON (in Europe).

[Jon A]

Evan,

I took the formula off Wikipedia.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-weight_ratio
From Wikipedia...
The power-to-weight ratio (Specific Power) formula for an engine (power plant) is the power generated by the engine divided by weight of the engine as follows:

P-to-W = P/W

A typical turbocharged V8 diesel engine might have an engine power of 330 horsepower (250 kW) and a weight of 835 pounds (379 kg)[1], giving it a power-to-weight ratio of 0.65 kW/kg (0.40 hp/lb).


I don't want to derail this thread because of my poor math skills.... no matter how the P/W ratio is supposed to be expressed, this should be one fast car and I would love to see it on Topgear someday!

-Jon A.

[FFRWRX]

If you look at the power to weight ratios for the cars on the list, you will see that a 325 BHP 818 will be better than everything on the list.

That list is out of date. I just watched the show where they tested the Ariel Atom V8 --- 500HP and 1300 lbs; that is now the fastest car around their track. I can certainly live with the 818 taking second place.

[BrandonDrums]

That list is out of date. I just watched the show where they tested the Ariel Atom V8 --- 500HP and 1300 lbs; that is now the fastest car around their track. I can certainly live with the 818 taking second place.

True, but the 818 is last place on the list above for p/w. However Cost/(P/W) is far more impressive with the 818 than any one of those cars. Moreso, the Coolness/(P/W) is also far more ideal.

[thebeerbaron]

That list is out of date. I just watched the show where they tested the Ariel Atom V8 --- 500HP and 1300 lbs; that is now the fastest car around their track. I can certainly live with the 818 taking second place.

The Atom may have better aero than the Caterham, but that exposed frame and those big fat un-fendered tires are draggy. I think the Stig's helmet is probably better for aero than Clarkson's face, fwiw. If we all pitch in and buy Jim some wind-tunnel time, I bet he could come up with a nice slippery shape. I doubt it would make up the 200hp differential, but it would be worth a bunch.

Hey Dave, want to suggest to Jim that he should test these designs in a wind tunnel? We'll pop some popcorn and watch from a safe distance while you broach the subject.

[Brian Apple]

VW Golf 1990, 2100-2200. Not 1786. Someone steered you wrong. GTI or not, weight is in this range depending on options in the car. I have one. Would be nice though......

[thebeerbaron]

VW Golf 1990, 2100-2200. Not 1786. Someone steered you wrong. GTI or not, weight is in this range depending on options in the car. I have one. Would be nice though......

1976 GTI, not 1990. http://www.carfolio.com/specificatio...eKwZ3LoheuuUNA

I didn't present years here, due to formatting issues. But it's all in my spreadsheet...

[Evan78]

If you're up for it, you can present data using the CODE tag or by changing the font to something monospaced like Courier New. Save your Excel spreadsheet as type "Formatted Text (Space delimited) (*.prn)". That will give you a text file you can open in Notepad, then copy and paste into your forum post.

[thebeerbaron]

I looked, but the code tag seemed to just present the raw html, rather than parsing it into something pretty. If you look at the bottom of this page, under the heading "Posting Permissions", it says "HTML code is off", which reinforces my hunch that I can't embed HTML in here. I'll look again and maybe try some things tonight.

[PhyrraM]

No chart neccisary.

For me the equation is easy:

(lightest car I've ever driven)/(reasonable power for cheap)*(any power I choose for a price)
__________________________________________________ ____________________________ (chassis designed to handle)+(return to FFRs single donor philosophy)/($15,000 complete goal)

= WIN

[David Hodgkins]

I looked, but the code tag seemed to just present the raw html, rather than parsing it into something pretty. If you look at the bottom of this page, under the heading "Posting Permissions", it says "HTML code is off", which reinforces my hunch that I can't embed HTML in here. I'll look again and maybe try some things tonight.

That is correct. You can't embed HTML at this time. During the setup for the forum, it was presented as a secuity concern. Converting to a text file that can be augmented with BB code is as elaborate as you can get currently...

HTH,

[Evan78]

I looked, but the code tag seemed to just present the raw html, rather than parsing it into something pretty. If you look at the bottom of this page, under the heading "Posting Permissions", it says "HTML code is off", which reinforces my hunch that I can't embed HTML in here. I'll look again and maybe try some things tonight.

When you said "spreadsheet", I figured you were referring to an Excel spreadsheet, not an HTML table. My Excel instructions are still valid if you follow them. The CODE tag is really just a formatting tag...

so that text looks like this and is easy to differentiate from standard body text.

But I only use it when I can't just specify a monospaced font.

[Arrowhead]

They should have code named it the 515, 5th FFR car in 15 years

[thebeerbaron]

That is correct. You can't embed HTML at this time. During the setup for the forum, it was presented as a secuity concern. Converting to a text file that can be augmented with BB code is as elaborate as you can get currently...

Yeah, understand the security concerns, used to do that sort of stuff for fun and profit (in the legitimate sense). Never ask me to write voting software

When you said "spreadsheet", I figured you were referring to an Excel spreadsheet, not an HTML table. My Excel instructions are still valid if you follow them. The CODE tag is really just a formatting tag...
But I only use it when I can't just specify a monospaced font.

I'll give it a shot tonight, but I think it'll still be too ugly.

[Jeff Kleiner]

They should have code named it the 515, 5th FFR car in 15 years

Except it's the sixth:
1. Roadster
2. Coupe
3. Spyder
4. GTM
5. '33 Hot Rod

If you want to split hairs and break the Challenge car away from the Roadster it's the seventh!

Jeff

[Evan78]

I'll give it a shot tonight, but I think it'll still be too ugly.

You could also replace the spaces with periods, so you get something like:

-------------------------------
Weight
(lbs) Make/Model          Year
-------------------------------
1212  Caterham Roadsport  XXXX
1290  Lotus Elan          XXXX
1350  Ariel Atom 3        XXXX

OR

-------------------------------
Weight
(lbs) Make/Model..........Year
-------------------------------
1212..Caterham Roadsport..XXXX
1290..Lotus Elan..........XXXX
1350..Ariel Atom 3........XXXX


In creating this example, I discovered why I've used the CODE tag in the past; it allows multiple spaces. If you don't use the code tag, multiple spaces get turned into a single space, just like HTML. So, you have to use some other character such as periods to align your data, or use the CODE tag if you use spaces. It's not pretty, but its better than omitting the information or just using commas to separate the data.

[thebeerbaron]

original post edited, thanks all!

[Evan78]

Holy cow, you were right. If you go too long, the lines wrap and it gets ugly. If I run my browser full width (maximized), it doesn't wrap, but you may want to put the links and notes in another table to keep the length at a reasonable level.