Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[apexanimal]

i'm inclined to think that it was the 11cm oil pump... i've read too many posts about the issues with running them on engines that aren't setup for them from factory...

at any rate - congratulations!

[metalmaker12]

I think the pump was not working due to improper assembly of timing belt assembly which he documented. Plenty of people use the 11mm over the 10 with no heat issues on the same setup

Congrats

[Scargo]

i'm inclined to think that it was the 11cm oil pump... i've read too many posts about the issues with running them on engines that aren't setup for them from factory...

I'd like to see something documenting this. I've heard just the opposite for a built motor.
It's an 11mm pump, not 11cm.
There seems to be a feeling among some that a 12mm pump is too much, though it might be appropriate for some applications where clearances, oil viscosity and many other items are set up for it.
Also, a DAVCS motor that diverts some oil to the second set of cam actuators, over an AVCS motor (or a non-AVCS motor) could use some additional flow, or a motor with external plumbing, reservoir, filter, thermostat, etc. would have its flow impeded and might could use the extra pressure to achieve the same flow.
This is from Jeff Sponaugle of PDXTuning.com, who is on here and building an 818. This is from 2007. Perhaps Jeff can comment on this, especially since we are 8+ years down the road?
SubaruOilPumps.jpg
Note that there is no oil viscosity or temperature referenced for this chart.
Also note that the data stops at 6000 RPM. What happens when you turn 7, 8 or even 9K? It might be extrapolated to some degree of accuracy.
Another thing is that many custom engine builders of note modify the passages and galleys in the case as well as porting the oil pump and changing the relief pressure shims and not going exactly by the book when it comes to bearing clearances. Often the mains are not identically clearanced.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm betting on the underdrive pulley slowing down the DS pump.
Here's a great pic of the Cosworth system stripped down to the bare essentials at SEMA 2014. Note how small the drive mandrel is in relation to the crank pulley behind it, and how large the DS pump pulley is. Now consider that the Element Tuning DS pump is being driven by the stock crank pulley, and even with the underdrive pulley Chad and I both installed, it's no where near the reduction that Cosworth mandrel is giving. But we both have cured the problem with the moderately underdriven pulley. Makes me want to fabricate an even smaller crank pulley or a larger DS drive pulley.

[Scargo]

That's an interesting theory. Did you just change that one thing (drive pulley downsized) and that resulted in the lower oil temps?
In theory, you have been over-scavenging the engine? Is this where aeration is suspected to be the culprit in overheating or something else?
Was vacuum on the case ever measured when closed? I've read that three or four scavenging stages may be needed to pull close to 10 inches*. Again, wouldn't this depend on whose pumps and how fast are they are driven?
What scavenging pumps are in the Cosworth two-stage DS scavenging system Vs Element Tuning's two-stage which uses Aviad scavenging pumps? Are we comparing apples to apples volume-wise and design-wise? Does ET leave you to run whatever oil pump you want?
From Cosworth:

20009093

Subaru 2008+ STI (EJ25) Blueprinted Oil Pump with high pressure mod .& install kit (11mm Rotor)

20001185

Subaru (EJ20/EJ25) High Volume/Pressure Blueprinted Oil Pump & install kit (12mm Rotor)

You don't get an oil pump with the Cosworth or ET system either, so Cosworth offers those two... (I don't see anyone suggesting a 10mm pump).
Anyone know what their systems are capable of or are actually delivering Vs the chart data in my post above on the Subaru pumps? *Aviad looks to offer pumps that do from .6" to 2" Hg. Again at what speed and what volume?

I wish I had more answers instead of questions. There are variables, but one would think this is not rocket science.

[Mitch Wright]

Sgt, I think you nailed it and would agree that slowing down the pump has most likely had the biggest effect.

Chad glad you finally were able to get to enjoy the car, good luck with the new ride.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo all your questions are answered in the "Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?" thread in the R forum. And I suggest that we move further posts regarding this to that thread.
But for brevity:
Like Chad, for the most part I changed more than one thing at a time. It's all detailed over in the other thread.
I don't know if "overscavenging" is the correct term. Maybe spinning the the DS pump too fast causes it to suck up too much air when there's not enough oil in the pan; maybe spinning it too fast causes the DS pump to cavitate. (John at Aviad pumps says you can spin them at 15,000 rpm before cavitation happens though.)
Yes I've measured vacuum in my sealed-closed system. Yes I pull plenty of vacuum. It's all documented in the R forum thread. The people who are writing that you need 4 scavenge pumps to pull vacuum either have never done it and are speculating, or they have done it on loosely built high HP blocks with very high turbo boost/blowby and are correct, they couldn't get enough seal to create a vacuum. But since Cosworth builds very high HP loose built long block racing engines and only use a two stage scavenge that creates enough vacuum that they include a relief regulator, I think it's more likely those writers never tried it!
I have no data comparing the pump specs between Aviad and Cosworth. If you can find that info it would good to know.
The Cosworth oil pumps in your post are intended for high HP all forged loose tolerance race built Dual AVCS engines, like their $15,000 longblocks. In my case I run a stock OEM shortblock with much tighter tolerances, single AVCS heads, so I use the oem 10mm pump.

[RetroRacing]

We have the 12mm installed in ours with the KB oil pan and pick up, will let you all know what happens

[longislandwrx]

Chad, thank you for being a pioneer, glad the hard road you traveled led to success.
You undoubtedly saved me a small fortune at great personal expense to yourself.
Let's get a beer next time you are in NY to celebrate, the first dozen are on me.

can't wait to see the video.

[C.Plavan]

Got word that my NP01 chassis came out of powdercoat on Weds.......

[129st]

Got word that my NP01 chassis came out of powdercoat on Weds.......

Chad,
Will you have an NP01 build/set-up thread/racing thread on a forum (Elan maybe?) somewhere?

Please post a link so we can continue to follow your racing development exploits.

[Pearldrummer7]

Or on the off-topic here so we all can follow it. I'd love to see that progress

[bbjones121]

I agree it would be cool to follow a thread, but this is a FFR site...

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
Will you have an NP01 build/set-up thread/racing thread on a forum (Elan maybe?) somewhere?

Please post a link so we can continue to follow your racing development exploits.

I may start up a FB racing page, or another site. I'll post it here when/if i do. I'll have videos on youtube, so you can just subscribe to my channel for that. There is a private NP01 owners forum, but that does not help people wanting to see progress.

I'm having them build it in the interest of time (and it is relatively cheap compared to my time). There are still a few things I will be doing/changing, but within the rules of course. The first Pacific NP01 Series race is the middle of March at Willow Springs. I will fly out to Elan within the next month for the tour and to see/turn a wrench on my car. They will be also pouring my seat. I'm in the process of designing the wrap for it with the help of some installers near Elan.

Not my wrap- But this one looks pretty cool. I'm going with Grey, White, and my normal Blue.
https://www.instagram.com/p/_KkOBSR1Mc/
https://www.instagram.com/p/_KkOBSR1Mc/

[Santiago]

Just caught up with your thread - CONGRATULATIONS CHAD! ...on the sale...but mostly on resolving the oil temp trouble!! GREAT NEWS!

Good luck with the NP01 - should be a blast and another adventure (hopefully of a different sort).

Best,
-j

[flynntuna]

I agree it would be cool to follow a thread, but this is a FFR site...

There have been build threads other than FFR builds in the "off topic section".
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Kit-Car-build

[C.Plavan]

Just caught up with your thread - CONGRATULATIONS CHAD! ...on the sale...but mostly on resolving the oil temp trouble!! GREAT NEWS!

Good luck with the NP01 - should be a blast and another adventure (hopefully of a different sort).

Best,
-j

Thanks- It was quite an adventure and wallet dieting project.

Words of advice- If you are looking at building a competitive 818R for racing only. Plan on spending north of $35k just in parts (not including labor). I was sucked in thinking I could build it for $25k..... Nope. Sure, you could build it for that, but you most likely won't be competitive. There are now some 818R builds I know have gone well over what I spent just looking at the parts they are installing.

I just suggest everyone add up "New" parts, then and add them to the cost of the 818R kit price. Then add another 30% to it. I know Gator did this, and his build in parts would be over $45k (no labor). He is now considering other cars. Once you get over a certain amount, you enter into a different level of car (especially if you add labor into the mix).

My last piece of advice (well known in racing), is always buy someone else's car that is done. The buyer of mine paid $25k, with tons of spares (perfect 2nd transmission, 2nd set of race wheels etc) He got a steal. He is picking it up on the 30th after he gets back from vacation. Part of me was happy to sell it, another part was sort of sad. I'll forget all about the sad part once the Transport drops off my Complete NP01 at my house.

Also, for those who are racing wheel 2 wheel seriously. You really want to look at the cage design. Maybe add to it. I did not feel that safe in an open car racing against 2 ton Corvettes. For DE and regular track duty it should be fine.

[metros]

I may start up a FB racing page, or another site. I'll post it here when/if i do. I'll have videos on youtube, so you can just subscribe to my channel for that. There is a private NP01 owners forum, but that does not help people wanting to see progress.

I'm having them build it in the interest of time (and it is relatively cheap compared to my time). There are still a few things I will be doing/changing, but within the rules of course. The first Pacific NP01 Series race is the middle of March at Willow Springs. I will fly out to Elan within the next month for the tour and to see/turn a wrench on my car. They will be also pouring my seat. I'm in the process of designing the wrap for it with the help of some installers near Elan.

Not my wrap- But this one looks pretty cool. I'm going with Grey, White, and my normal Blue.
https://www.instagram.com/p/_KkOBSR1Mc/
https://www.instagram.com/p/_KkOBSR1Mc/

^^^That wrap design does look killer.

Make sure to update us whichever avenue you go (FB page or forum thread). I'd like to continue following your experiences with the new ride.

Martini livery for the NP01? I always like it on your 818.

[Frank818]

You da man, Chadfornia!

[Mitch Wright]

My R is coming in at just under 36K not including any spares other than a extra set of wheels. I head to the dyno in a few weeks to see if I am close to my 275hp target.
Like any racer we will spend what we have.

[RetroRacing]

We are probably over $60k right now, still have some things to complete, 7k just in the fuel system for a real, legal fuel cell that can carry 33 gallons, dual dry brake and all Kevlar lines. We also have over 500 hours just in the body, mostly in the rear, to close up gaps, fit the body lines, make it possible to work on the engine blah blah.
It's all about what you want to do with the car, track days and the odd sprint race, you can probably follow the manual and all good, but if you want to run the car to potential, this is a $75k car all done. Considering my scca EP car has about $50k in it, and an engine is 4k to rebuild, this is still a rather cheap option for the level of performance and the low cost of servicing (ever pay for a brake job on a Cup car?)

[C.Plavan]

We are probably over $60k right now, still have some things to complete, 7k just in the fuel system for a real, legal fuel cell that can carry 33 gallons, dual dry brake and all Kevlar lines. We also have over 500 hours just in the body, mostly in the rear, to close up gaps, fit the body lines, make it possible to work on the engine blah blah.
It's all about what you want to do with the car, track days and the odd sprint race, you can probably follow the manual and all good, but if you want to run the car to potential, this is a $75k car all done. Considering my scca EP car has about $50k in it, and an engine is 4k to rebuild, this is still a rather cheap option for the level of performance and the low cost of servicing (ever pay for a brake job on a Cup car?)

I thought I was crazy! . You do have a great build going on, I can't wait to see it on the track.

BTW- Brake jobs are not the problem on Cup Cars. It's the transmission, Engine rebuilds and those darn axle replacements

I could of bought a Cup, but I was talked out of it because of maintenance. I'm also thinking resale down the road with the NP01. I have already made money on it and I have not even recieved it yet. Since they sold the first ~25, the price is now $72,500 in kit form (Don't confuse "Kit Form" with FFR "Kit's"- Elan does not make you cut/weld/fix known problems- It is truly bolt together-Engine, Trans, ECU, wiring harness, Fire bottle, Brakes etc. Also, $81,500 built from Elan Turnkey without any additional options). I just closed the gap on what I lost on the 818R :P

[TouchStone]

My R is coming in at just under 36K not including any spares other than a extra set of wheels. I head to the dyno in a few weeks to see if I am close to my 275hp target.
Like any racer we will spend what we have.

I thought your target was 300

[Mulry]

Also, for those who are racing wheel 2 wheel seriously. You really want to look at the cage design. Maybe add to it. I did not feel that safe in an open car racing against 2 ton Corvettes. For DE and regular track duty it should be fine.

Where do you think that bars need to be added? We're adding a solid steel anti-intrusion plate on the driver's side but I'd love to hear where you think there should be some additional protection since you've been on track with yours and mine is still sitting in the garage waiting for the Lemons car to finish getting rebuilt. Thx Chad.

[C.Plavan]

Where do you think that bars need to be added? We're adding a solid steel anti-intrusion plate on the driver's side but I'd love to hear where you think there should be some additional protection since you've been on track with yours and mine is still sitting in the garage waiting for the Lemons car to finish getting rebuilt. Thx Chad.

I had a real metal plate for side intrusion also. I would totally enclose the driver's head going off the front (hidden under dash) hoop. Make it more like a coupe roll cage. You don't want to scoop up a car, or roll it in mud/dirt after contact.... I had no issues in testing on an open track, it just got freaky for me when you had a ton of monster cars fighting for the corner while racing. You are really exposed head wise. Your helmet also takes a beating from debris.

Also keep in mind the rear hoop is welded on a Square tube that has open ends.....

[RetroRacing]

We are toying with adding a foam crash pad into the doors aka Corvette racing, for side impact. Trying to keep this beast under 1800lbs......

[C.Plavan]

We are toying with adding a foam crash pad into the doors aka Corvette racing, for side impact. Trying to keep this beast under 1800lbs......

Then you fill it up with 200 pounds of gas I used High Strength Aluminum for my side intrusion panel. Stronger than mild steel, half the weight.

[Mulry]

We are toying with adding a foam crash pad into the doors aka Corvette racing, for side impact. Trying to keep this beast under 1800lbs......

I read about that sometime in the last couple years, but I can't find the article. But it discussed how they engineered that via a partnership with some school (Wayne State seems to come to mind?). I've thought about doing that exact same thing on the outside of our steel anti-intrusion plate. I went with steel because I wanted to weld it to the bars so that it couldn't shear rivets in an impact. We will probably dimple die the crap out of it to reduce the weight and increase the strength.

Anyway, back to the anti-intrusion foam crash box thing. For some reason I seem to think that it was a kevlar and honeycomb design that they came up with. It looks like this stuff is what NASCAR is using in their driver-side crash boxes outside the safety cage, but I don't know if we could buy it or how much it would cost:

http://www.coastal-automotive.com/en...d-polystyrene/

[C.Plavan]

I read about that sometime in the last couple years, but I can't find the article. But it discussed how they engineered that via a partnership with some school (Wayne State seems to come to mind?). I've thought about doing that exact same thing on the outside of our steel anti-intrusion plate. I went with steel because I wanted to weld it to the bars so that it couldn't shear rivets in an impact. We will probably dimple die the crap out of it to reduce the weight and increase the strength.

Anyway, back to the anti-intrusion foam crash box thing. For some reason I seem to think that it was a kevlar and honeycomb design that they came up with. It looks like this stuff is what NASCAR is using in their driver-side crash boxes outside the safety cage, but I don't know if we could buy it or how much it would cost:

http://www.coastal-automotive.com/en...d-polystyrene/

I used rivnuts on my intrusion panel (I only went into the square bars). Rivets would be a disaster.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

but I don't know if we could buy it or how much it would cost:

http://www.coastal-automotive.com/en...d-polystyrene/

Here is a place that sells impaxx foam.

https://www.rollbarpadding.com/product/id-69

For a door I would look at 24" x 40" x 4"thick $200
Bob

[RetroRacing]

That's the stuff! If it's good enough for Nazcaw, its good enough for me!

[RetroRacing]

And that's 204.9 lbs of fuel, just to be clear....

[Mulry]

That's the stuff! If it's good enough for Nazcaw, its good enough for me!

Ideally, we'd find a way to sculpt that material to match the inner contour of the door skin and fill it in all the way, but I guess just getting the outline correct will be about the best we could do. Dow says that the "Impaxx foam has multiple attachment methods, including tape, hot-melt (glue?), mechanical screws and clips, heat staking, sonic welding, plus others."

Assuming that everybody who's racing these is doing some kind of anti-intrusion panel on the outside of the cage (my steel panel, Chad's uber-aluminum panel, etc), any thoughts what would be the best way to attach the Impaxx foam to the panel to ensure that it stays in place during an impact rather than just getting sheared off (in something like a quartering hit)?

[Zach34]

Assuming that everybody who's racing these is doing some kind of anti-intrusion panel on the outside of the cage (my steel panel, Chad's uber-aluminum panel, etc), any thoughts what would be the best way to attach the Impaxx foam to the panel to ensure that it stays in place during an impact rather than just getting sheared off (in something like a quartering hit)?

I'm guessing glue would work? I mean, the foam is there to absorb a little energy in a side t-bone collision before impacting the cage. The more quartering or glancing the impact is, the less direct-impact energy there is to absorb.

[RetroRacing]

Our plan is glue it into the door, then mech fasten the door to the body. Imagine the hollow of the door filled with the foam, up against the exterior mounted alum panel, that is glued and riveted to the side bars. better than a sedan with gutted doors in my opinion.

Then, it will only be my wallet that is hollow.....er.

[C.Plavan]

Brayden had is last drive in the 818R. It went to the new owner yesterday. The 911 racecar is lonely, all alone in the garage. It won't be lonely too long.

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad before you disappear into NP01 Land...what was your final racing wet weight?
Do you have the corner weights?

[C.Plavan]

Chad before you disappear into NP01 Land...what was your final racing wet weight?
Do you have the corner weights?

Hp/wt for ST2. I had to pull off the track to the scales at 2266 (with me and all my driver gear). I made it by 4 pounds first race.
460 463
703 640

[Sgt.Gator]

Hp/wt for ST2. I had to pull off the track to the scales at 2266 (with me and all my driver gear). I made it by 4 pounds first race.
460 463
703 640

Thanks. Stop by and update us occasionally on your new journey!

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad's next garage pic: