Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[DrieStone]

I was going to say 818R, let the racers help fine tune any issues and details so those of us who want the road car will have an easier time, but I read Phyrra's comment and I have to agree that you have to watch out for that. Part of the goal of the 818 has also been that $15k target. If you show a $35k track car, get everyone excited about it, then show the $15k car it might hurt.

In the software industry you can always add features, but if you remove them, you're in for a world of hurt.

In the end I have to say that you should show the street car, then show the race version after. No one will be disappointed in the street car, and the race one will allow you to do a whole other round of "press" (where the street car probably won't be worth that much press once the race car is out).

Seems to me that you're going to have the happiest customers, and the best marketing push if you release the $15k car first, and the race version second.

Just my 2 cents.

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, could you have both done by SEMA?

I have two words for you: Build party.

Seriously, line up a trusted Beta Builder and let his team build it at FFR. Then you take it to SEMA and say your customers built it.



EDIT: ...or line up several Betas and REALLY throw some build parties at FFR!

[Dave Smith]

Oppie: Milk Crate = I've been away from the forum so long I was put on a milk carton (I should've said Milk carton)

Dave: ARGH!!! I owe you a call brother! Ive seriously considered building 2 cars for SEMA but that would take resources away from the production start up efforts (even managing a beta in-house takes time to do right) and unlike most "kit car" companies, the launch plan is very well concieved, timed, resourced and being implemented on time with the product testing, beta builds, and operations set-up and training complete wayyyy before any orders are taken or wild claims are made... The addition of another car for SEMA means I have to go back and reconfigure the plan. I'm not saying no to a build party, but at this point it wasnt in the plan.

Guys: THANKS for the great feedback. I'm going to seriously stew on it and get some releases for you guys by weeks end. I think you guys deserve a peek at something before open house.

[apexanimal]

Guys: THANKS for the great feedback. I'm going to seriously stew on it and get some releases for you guys by weeks end. I think you guys deserve a peek at something before open house.

can't argue with that

[D2W]

We all definately deserve a peek asap If at all possible I think you should roll out both. Roll out the Street car (10K + WRX = 15K of fun) and right behind it have an 818R (slammed to the ground, spoilers, brakes, upgraded engine, ect.) Show everyone not familiar with the car your swatch watch mentality.

[Stickshift84]

Thanks for the update!!! I can't wait for more

I would have to agree with your thoughts on this and vote for the 818R to be shown first. I think it will have the biggest impact. I am curious as to what chassis changes exist for the race version and if all the original goals stay the same... sub $10,000 price and sub 1800 lb weight?

I plan on ordering as soon as available and do not have an opinion yet (until I see the differences) on which version I prefer. As long at it has an open top and can be made street legal at launch, I will be happy.

[RossLH]

One quick point - to counter the argument of marketing what's going to sell the most volume.

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....

Its a classic marketing move. Show a potential customer the best, most expensive option to get them interested, then take some options away and make the price more reasonable to land the sale. I say show the fastest, most awesome car you have, and if people show concern about the price, let them know there are less pricey options available.

[unclebigbad]

I got here late (for this thread), but, "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is true, I got interested in FFR because of racing, its in the name for goodness sake. What gets customers into the showroom is the flash and what sells is the value. And value dose not mean cost.

[Evan78]

Dave - can you tell us what the major differences are between the street and race versions? We can all speculate, but perhaps some clarity will allow better feedback.

My simple answer - If you can only build one car, throw everything at it. Use the best looking exterior and best (street) interior.

Everyone that doesn't attend SEMA and is unfamiliar with FFR is going to be turned on/off by whatever press coverage they read. I'm assuming the track/race version is going to have a better looking exterior, so I would use that AND with the best interior possible. This is what many SEMA cars look like, however unlikely or impractical they may be in the real world. As previously mentioned, every race guy can look at a car and imagine what he doesn't need in there, but seeing a bare bones interior does nothing for someone looking for a street car. Plus, the reputation for kit cars is that they have poor fit and finish, this is an opportunity to prove otherwise.

[slopoke]

I'm partial to the "wolf in sheeps cothing" approach ... do the street car with some performance upgrades to show off some of its potential. It should have the same effect as a shapely gal showing a bit of cleavage ... or show street and track bodies at SEMA and the go-kart to get your swatch watch idea firmly planted. Yes, please post some rendering if you can so we have an idea what to put on the T-shirts. Nothing like a litte advance marketing. What can we do to help? .... and Dave .... thanks for the opportunity for all of us on this forum to throw around our ideas, no matter how harebrained they might be.

[shim2]

Dave - can you tell us what the major differences are between the street and race versions? We can all speculate, but perhaps some clarity will allow better feedback.

My simple answer - If you can only build one car, throw everything at it. Use the best looking exterior and best (street) interior.

Everyone that doesn't attend SEMA and is unfamiliar with FFR is going to be turned on/off by whatever press coverage they read. I'm assuming the track/race version is going to have a better looking exterior, so I would use that AND with the best interior possible. This is what many SEMA cars look like, however unlikely or impractical they may be in the real world. As previously mentioned, every race guy can look at a car and imagine what he doesn't need in there, but seeing a bare bones interior does nothing for someone looking for a street car. Plus, the reputation for kit cars is that they have poor fit and finish, this is an opportunity to prove otherwise.

From his first post.....

The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

[cmcintyre]

The 818R.

As a guy who just TODAY broke ground on the shop to build an FFR, I think it's important to remember that if we've come to this forum, at some level we have decided to, or are open to, a unique way to get the car we want.

I'm a road racer (Spec E30) and it was bringing that car up to being a race car that made me look at making or assembling what I wanted. I think most racers or track junkies are ready to make the leap to the build to for the right car. It's might be a larger jump for a street or classic car driver.

If you do go 818R, I would think it would be a big shot in the arm if you have NASA on board with a Race Series for it. You'd have an instant fanatical group, albeit small. They will make your rep for you, open the eyes of performance street drivers to the possibilities and by then you'd have the street version available and the rest would be history....

[Xusia]

What would be REALLY neat is to have 1 car with 2 bodies, and show off how easy it is to change from one to other! That would also show how versatile it is (swatch watch idea), and how they are really the same car (meaning, you could drive the track car on the street, or the street car on the track)...

[shim2]

what would be really neat is to have 1 car with 2 bodies, and show off how easy it is to change from one to other! That would also show how versatile it is (swatch watch idea), and how they are really the same car (meaning, you could drive the track car on the street, or the street car on the track)...

this!

[Flamshackle]

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.

This^^^

Good 818R on display with grea imagery of the road car then producing the road car first. The hot looking racer will help the production car sell.

PS the old saying posted earlier "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" can't possibly apply to a race car that hasn't raced yet.

[PhyrraM]

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....

From what I have seen, almost all the 'mass market' advertizing featured the V6 (300HP+30MPG), leaving the specialty magazines and smaller outlets (like GRM and 5.0 Tech, etc) to advertize the V8.

[Mechie3]

I was thinking you should show off the road version, but have the cage, body, wings, etc for the race version mounted on racks behind the car. SEMA is about going overboard, race-looking designs, who can be crazier than the next. Having the race "accessories" for viewing lets you show off the top model, while also allowing a more refined model for the complete product. No matter what you do, people will complain, etc, but having a more refined interior is probably for the best.

Also, if you need Beta builders, I might be glad to help. I just a complete frame up rebuild of a Formula 400 open wheel car. Oh....and a lady ran a red light last night and wrecked my car so I think I found my donor too. Lemons...lemonade.

[Evan78]

From his first post.....

Thanks shim, I've reread Dave's post now and tried to eliminate everything that doesn't apply to my question:

the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

IF we focus on the track car, there is no doubt that we will also have available the street version but the spotlight would shine most brightly on the 818 with a few upgraded components over the stock Subie 265 hp engine, stock brakes, street trim.

ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body.

From Dave's post, here's what I get for a the race version:

• additional cage
• spoilers
• shocks
• brakes
• race stuff
• open cockpit

Does open cockpit mean no windshield?

Perhaps the cage can be marked to indicate what part is standard and what is part of the race version. Either different colors, labels, a small band on each bar, etc.

[el_jefe]

Remember what SEMA is: Specialty Equipment Market Association. The party where everyone brings out all the toys. It's not the car show where the auto manufactureres let the public sit in production cars, it's where the aftermarket sez "check this **** out!"

So it has to be the 818R, with all the bells and whistles so Factory Five can not only show off their chops, but the other companies that put in work on suspension, drivetrain, wheels, ect can too. Not only will it catch the eye of the media, but other aftermarket vendors who might want to jump on board.

Remember, the public isn't really at SEMA, it's the media and vendors only. So you have to impress them first in order to get it out to the public.

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

[Evan78]

el_jefe - I don't disagree that SEMA is the place to go big, but consideration should be given to the fact that while the general public does not attend, they consume print and video coverage of the products shown there. Your audience goes beyond just the physical attendees.

[shim2]

Remember what SEMA is: Specialty Equipment Market Association. The party where everyone brings out all the toys. It's not the car show where the auto manufactureres let the public sit in production cars, it's where the aftermarket sez "check this **** out!"

So it has to be the 818R, with all the bells and whistles so Factory Five can not only show off their chops, but the other companies that put in work on suspension, drivetrain, wheels, ect can too. Not only will it catch the eye of the media, but other aftermarket vendors who might want to jump on board.

Remember, the public isn't really at SEMA, it's the media and vendors only. So you have to impress them first in order to get it out to the public.

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

I think you got it perfect.

[Nuul]

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

I'll one up you there and say get one of the 2.34 engines from MPS for the SEMA show. The lower torque will help keep the power to the ground and the high rpm power will really scream. A 9k rev limit coupled with an 818-R is a recipe for big smiles. I really wish it wasn't out of my price range or I'd have ordered it already.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Do you guys have any thoughts?

I had to chuckle when I read this. You have been on this forum before, right?

At first I thought you should go with the street version, but your logic to show the R first persuaded me. It would be entirely consistent with the SEMA show, it makes a bigger splash, and it establishes a halo car. I believe you should have at least a rendering of the street car as well, stressing the low price-point, street legality, and the fact that it has 90% (95%?) of the performance potential of the R.

[NonProfit]

Whatever you go with, I believe managing expectations is critical.

I have been wanting a car like this for a long time. When I came to know about it I read it to be "$10K for the kit + a donor + $5K in misc. parts". Then I understood the five was to purchase the donor. WOW! Then I started looking and have yet to see a WRX for that cost. So, this will still cost less than my initial expectation, but had I understood the project to be "$10K + donor" that would have been a different experience.

I'd be clear to manage expectations:
• How will the 818, 818-R and 818-HM differ? (Price, performance, appearance, release date.)
• My styling preference is what I consider "upscale performance" (think Lotus Elise). I know many people who build their own cars want extreme styling (Lamborghini or beyond). Will there be more than three body styles? Will any of the parts mix and match Swatch-style? A choice of several front end treatments could dramatically increase the market for this car.
• It is known there will be available suspension and brake upgrades. What is the cost and will other options be available?
• A soft top with zip-in windows will be standard at launch. Are glass windows coming? At what cost? Will they fit in the early cars?
• There has been a lot of forum interest in a targa top. Will that ever be an option & can it be retrofitted?
• A master parts list would be golden! I'm completely new to Subaru's engines, but from the forums it's clear that more than just '02-'07 will fit. But exactly what will is still a mystery (at least to me.)
• Not SEMA related, but it would help manage expectations if you would solicit questions from the community and releasing one answer video a week.

I've always considered myself a car guy but it's been a long time since I've been this interested in anything automotive. Thanks!

[willboss]

So Dave, if you are tempted to "build" 2 cars, why not introduce the 2 cars at the same time, even if you can't build both. Maybe I'm thinking too big, but if you start with a covered, "built" car with 2 screens behind it. On the screens you start with a Presentation about the project, then introduce the Street version, virtually. Build up in the Presentation, then pull the covers off the "R" version. This is SEMA after all, and all the press at SEMA will be drawn to the R version, but you'll still be able to get coverage of the Street version too.

[Scott L]

For SEMA it would have to be a balls to the wall 818R. The "tip of the spear".

[Kalstar]

Depends what they look like, my gut says the street version. Th spec racer is very "bare". I would think making the interior as production as possible would be a "need". Maybe a hybrid of the street and race. The 818r but with street lights and interior.

[bobzdar]

I cannot think of a car intro that had the racing version first. Get people excited with the street version and let them know it's a real street car, then push them over the top with the r version where they see what the car can become. I'm more interested in the r version but I think the street version will get people excited and provide a good buildup to the r version so makes more sense from a marketing perspective. Looking at halo sports car releases in recent years, the street version always comes first with the r version sometimes years later (porsche 918) or a couple of days later (viper).

[RM1SepEx]

Wow, I step away from the computer... work on one of my bikes all afternoon...

Show renderings soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to somehow show both! Who knows what will generate the most buzz, we do know that the volume is in the street roadster... somehow showing the way the two are related to each other, it is important to show how complete the car is as a $9995 kit, buildable for $15,000, can you show both?

If I could only bring one it would be the street version with a rendering, a stack of parts added, parts deleted, and pricing to get an "R" model (interior delete, race seat add, spoiler add etc..-)

Factory 5's bread and butter is a single donor roadster, the track models sell far fewer cars. The performance of the standard, stock WRX, single donor build will absolutely floor people.

I'm personally up for a street model with adjustable "R" model shocks and a top.

The top as described is all that I need, something in case it rains so my leather seats don't get wet!

Now to figure out where my donor is... delivery is now a day late!

And my donor is avail, I'll volunteer it for a quick build for SEMA

[shinn497]

From a marketing perspective, this is still a no brainer. Racer first generate the buzz and the spread the word. I think word of mouth will be big and a racer will do just that. It is kind of a bait and switch but consider the following:

The street version won't be too gimped in a lot of areas. The thing is getting koni shocks, 818kg, and a 230 hp engine no matter what.

The street version would be cheaper and that is a plus. I actually think a lot of people, not in the know, will mistake this for a more expensive car. They will be pleasantly surprised by the street version.

The street version would be more livable and legal and that will matter to a lot of people. If people saw a track version, they would probably ask about a street model anyway.

Think about this from a business perspective. It is more important to spread buzz, and as long as you don't lie, it isn't unethical to.

BY THE WAY THANKYOU DAVE FOR BEING ACTIVE YAYSAUCE!

[Evan78]

I'll put my thoughts another way - build an awesome version of the street car. If it looks awesome and appears streetable, that will result in the most excitement and attention. Car enthusiasts dream of the ultimate street car a lot more than the ultimate track car.

[JBrown88]

I understand the reasoning for showing the street version 818. I agree with people saying 818R though.

Like shinn said, it's about buzz. You have to get people talking, and to get people talking, you have to stand out. While the street version does stand out, the 818R will stand out more. Will everyone want to buy that version? No. Will everyone like and talk about the race version? Definitely. I mean, I have no plans to get the 818R, but I'd still think it'd be cool to see.

In a perfect world, both would be shown. But the plan (from what Dave has said) is to show one. So have the race version to grab people's attention, and then talk up all the different versions as much as you can.

[SkiRideDrive]

I think a big sign with total build cost will really get everyone talking.

[imom]

The old adage "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't going to work if you only have the track version. In the old days, the race cars were the marketing engine (no pun intended) to push sales of cars. People see a race car win and then buy the production version. So if only an 818R exist without a street version... then it's only for the niche market of track cars only.

If FF5's main business in the past has been only track cars then this makes sense. If this is for breaking into commercial arena and younger crowd... it's going to be daily drivers that will occasionally time track their cars.

Personally I'm pushing for the coupe and probably in the minority, but guess it will delay my choice of getting an 818 coupe later than sooner. With track car only ready, I guess I'll wait until until all the bugs are worked out then and look forward to the production version of the street coupe.

Highly encourage some build parties to have both an 818R and street version 818 even if it's a targa or soft top. Easy to say, hard to do with limited resources... thank you for asking us.

[shinn497]

@imom

According to Dave's post, both versions will be launching. I don't think you have to worry about the 818R being the only model.

[jimgood]

By launching the 818R first maybe you can bring back the old NASCAR credo: Race on Sunday. Sell on Monday.

[GS guy]

Definitely FULL Race car on the floor. Slicks, lightweight wheels, ultra low, blow your mind vehicle. BUT - the backdrop is a 1/2-3/4 scale full color high quality picture of the street version, a huge wall hanging behind the racer sitting out front. The intention will be clear, and images firmly burned into memory. Can't wait to see the body design!

[Mechie3]

Will the "R" accesories be available individually for those that want a hopped up street version 818, or will the 818R itself be streetable? If I'm going through all the time and effort to build an 818, I'd want it to look like an exotic (or semi exotic) like a Lambo or Lotus. If it looks like a rear engined plain jane miata, it's kind of a let down to me. I love the white rendering that is on the landing page for the 818. I'd love something that looks like the white car, but is still streetable.

[Cobradavid]

Dave,

I've never been to SEMA in person. But from the press coverage I've seen, the cars at SEMA are the most tricked-out versions, not the high-volume, base models.

Having the track version there should get the most attention. That will suck people in. Having renderings and information on all three versions (especially, the street and high mileage versions) will show off Factory Five's design and engineering prowess and will demonstrate your intentions with the 818 model line.

You probably know this, but make sure the car you display has an eye-popping paint job (one that will make flames burst out on top of people's melons!). Also, make sure everyone knows that the car you display is not a one-off concept car, but the top trim level of a production car going on sale soon.

David

[kach22i]

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first. To establish that the performance potential of the car is above cars like Porsche Boxter/Cayman/911, the Lotus Exige/Evora, and other notable track cars including even the modified Subies and others... THAT seems to me to be the biggest priority.

You have provided your own answer here.

Track car first.

Besides, if there are any rough, crude or unsophisticated details and or issues/finishes with the prototype, it will be much easier to forgive on a "track car" than on something allegedly ready for the street.