Registering the 818 in California: SB100

[SkiRideDrive]

Hi Everyone,

Been lurking for a while. I've come by a lot of great info so far. I thought I would start a discussion about registering the 818 in California. I found a helpful article describing the general process.

http://home.thegrid.net/~ffr4776/SB100_Registration.pdf

Perhaps some people with some experience would like to comment further.

Also, the author mentions the ease of registering under the year of the body style vs. the year of the motor (for a 65 cobra kit car in his example). Any idea what year the 818 body style would be classified as? Would it be classified as a '60 due to no identifiable model year?

Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

[wooward]

I read a lot about this a couple of months ago. I believe for the 818 it'll be like this. If you complete the 818 in 2013 it'll be registered as 2013 and be smogged to the whatever the year of the engine is (2002-2007). If you fill out the paperwork for SB100 Exemption (only 500 given out a year) it'll be registered as a 2013 and be smogged to 1960 due to no identifiable model year. People who have completed GTMs have done this. Registered as current year and smogged to 1960 with SB100 exemption. Please correct me if this is wrong information.

[Gollum]

wooward's hit the nail on the head regarding the SB100 process.

The only thing I'd like to point out, is that I believe that if the SB100's are all out, then you have to register it as a current production year, AND smog it as current production year, which means it will most likely not pass inspection to get it's label from the smog ref. That's the whole reason the SB100 was started, because there simply wasn't a legal process to put a replica car on the road with a vintage engine.

[Brastic]

You only need SB100 if you want to register your car as a 1960. You can register the 818 as a MY (Model Year) 2013 (or when ever you go to register your car) and put down the on the smog sticker the year of the motor. I have done this before and it works. The down side is that you will have to smog the car every 2 years and that you will need all the smog equipment from the donor car. Both of those are not that bad. What I would hate to hear about is people holding back driving their car because they think that they have to have an SB100 to register it.

[SkiRideDrive]

Thanks for the input. I was confused about the 1960 exemption, but if this is the case concerning no identifiable model year, and people have been successful with the GTM in this circumstance, that sounds like the way to go to me.

[olpro]

I do not believe that is correct. Here is a quote from the Ca. law and it says that the model year of the engine is what would count.

“Per California Vehicle Code §4750.1, the first 500 program applicants in each calendar year may choose whether the inspection is based on the model-year of the engine used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year. If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year.”

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcns.htm

[wooward]

I do not believe that is correct. Here is a quote from the Ca. law and it says that the model year of the engine is what would count.

“Per California Vehicle Code §4750.1, the first 500 program applicants in each calendar year may choose whether the inspection is based on the model-year of the engine used in the vehicle or the vehicle model-year. If the engine or the vehicle does not sufficiently resemble one previously manufactured, the referee will assign 1960 as the model-year.”

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcns.htm

With SB100, You get to pick whether you want to smog to engine OR model year. Since the vehicle resembles one that is not previously manufactured, you get 1960. Others have done it many times. Here's an example.
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fact...ml#post1844858

[olpro]

I would like to believe that but, in reading over your links thoroughly, I did not see a single case of someone who has actually done it that way with a modern engine. I don't care about people who HEARD this is the case, or TALKED to someone who supposedly did it.
Having lived in the Peoples' Republic of California for many years, I don't expect they will ever give you a break when they could mess you over.
If you are correct, that would be terrific however. It is just that I would like to hear it from someone who actually did it, and not with a custom built non stock engine which might slip through.

[David Hodgkins]

wooward is correct. In the absence of a comparable body, The year 1960 is used for emissions requirements.

[olpro]

<MOD EDIT: ONCE AGAIN, non-family friendly phrase REMOVED>
Come on!
As to the issue, PROVE IT to me.

[David Hodgkins]

Choose to believe it or not. I'm not searching the internet to satisfy you whims.

[Niburu]

Choose to believe it or not. I'm not searching the internet to satisfy you whims.

But you're on an internet forum, that's sorta the point, the abuilty to back up your point and/or arguement with documentation.
Otherwise anything you contend is just heresay at best and most likely invalid.

[riptide motorsport]

Davids correct........thats just they way it is.

[SkiRideDrive]

Well that is good to hear. The other thing I was curious about was the receipts necessary. I believe they require you to have receipts for all major components including engine and transmission. Is a bill of sale from a private owner for a donor car from which the major components are pulled sufficient? Thanks.

[olpro]

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcnsreg.htm
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/spcns.htm

The above will help to get you going. You will find, as I have, that there is a lot of contradictory and confusing information – on both official and the non-official sites you may get with a google search. There are so many ways to interpret this that you may be at the mercy of the clerk you get on the day you show up (Jan 2nd – to be first in line). In the meantime, I will hope for info from someone who actually has experience with this process, not just an opinion.

[Gollum]

olpro ~ I saw an Atom-esk copy this summer and the guy had it tagged as a 1960, and it was a Honda F series motor. Here's the way he explained it to me as to what happened.

1. Went to DMV with SB100 paperwork and build information paperwork and receipts. He said it was a "lotus replica, 1960 year". DMV says "ok, here's your paperwork, go to CHP to get it checked for road compliance"

2. Went to CHP to get checked. They check that lights all worked and glass was there and all was DOT approved. They said "ok, now deal with the Ref for the BAR label".

3. Went to Ref. Ref says "this ain't like any lotus I've ever seen pal" and the owner says "well that's what the DMV paperwork says now". Ref says "ok, well that's not my job anyways" and then does his baseline, even though the honda motor was nowhere near emissions compliant when compared to the car it came out of.

The guy didn't even have a CAT on it. When it comes to SB100, so much of it will come down to how prepared you are, and what DMV you're talking with/doing it through. If you let them make your decision for you, they will. Be educated and let them know what you want to do and usually they'll oblige.

[olpro]

Thanks Gollum.
You have moved the bar forward and helped with the understanding of this issue. I appreciate it.

[SkiRideDrive]

Does anyone know if there is any issue with picking up a salvage title donor car with the sb100 application process?

[bbatts]

I realize this is a thread for Calif. cars, however, I am in Tenn. and I have a similar problem. Below is copy from the Tenn. DMV site. The summary is, that "kit" cars will be titled as the vehicle they most resemble and is exempt from annual inspections. So now the question becomes, what the 818 most closely resembles ????? Porsche 918 might be are reasonable guess.

I have also read previously that NC is favorable toward "homebuilt/kit" cars.

Maybe we should begin a thread just for getting our 818s registered in the various States and/or possibly identify the best (most friendly) State.

Thanks,

B Batts
Nashville, TN


"Under the bill, kit cars and replica vehicles would have been assigned a certificate of title bearing the same model year designation as the production vehicle it most closely resembles. The bill exempted customs from periodic vehicle inspections and emissions inspections and from a range of standard equipment requirements. The legislation also provided for a one-time registration fee of $25, valid as long as you own the custom vehicle."

[Xusia]

So start the thread, man! LOL

[Brastic]

I had no problem registering my Sterling kit car in Ca. I did everything above board and took no short cuts. The first thing I ran into is that some of the employees at the DMV have not dealt with specially constructed vehicle registration before so they read the DMV web page and "wing it". I do not blame them for that, after all it is new to most of them and for the most part they get lied to by the public all day long. Be friendly and have a lot of documentation and the processes is not that bad. The three man things that they are looking for is the revenue, smog and that the major parts are not stolen.

[Brastic]

Does anyone know if there is any issue with picking up a salvage title donor car with the sb100 application process?

It is done all the time. You must get a BAR inspection is all. For all of the FFR cars, this would not matter as you are not using a donor chassis.

[SkiRideDrive]

It is done all the time. You must get a BAR inspection is all. For all of the FFR cars, this would not matter as you are not using a donor chassis.

Thanks for the info Brastic. Only reason I thought it might be an issue is because you are supposed to have receipts for the major components, including the engine. Wasn't sure if the bill of sale indicated salvage if that would raise any flags.

[Cooluser23]

You only need SB100 if you want to register your car as a 1960. You can register the 818 as a MY (Model Year) 2013 (or when ever you go to register your car) and put down the on the smog sticker the year of the motor. I have done this before and it works. The down side is that you will have to smog the car every 2 years and that you will need all the smog equipment from the donor car. Both of those are not that bad. What I would hate to hear about is people holding back driving their car because they think that they have to have an SB100 to register it.

Finally a good post.

[cordycord]

The frustrating thing about the SB100 is that you have to deal with the CA DMV. Now, depending on the day, the person you get, the phase of the moon, and your preparation, you could have an easy or tough time. With the economy in its current state, I heard that there were still SB100 certificates in November. In years past you'd have to get to the DMV on the first day it was open before all 500 were snatched up.

Building based on a salvaged vehicle won't make it a salvage, and you will be able to sell it as a used car when you're done having fun. The person who buys it from you won't have to go through the same rain dance.

I believe that this law was loosely meant to help the Cobra kit market, as 427 side oilers would never pass CA smog. However, a law directed at cars that look like other cars means that it can get confusing for an 818, or some other uniquely-designed vehicle.

[Ray]

You are going to have to deal with CA-DMV as well as BAR no matter which path you take. The advantage of the SB-100 program is no dealing with smog test every other year (and with CA getting more stringent on emissions, PM-2.5 etc.) it would be a great advantage if you were to ever sell the car.

The process isn't really that difficult especially if you educate yourself about it. Lot's of builders here and on FFCars have been through it.

Here is a link to the SPCNS page(s) http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/home/dm...x=0&submit.y=0

Ray

[Movieman]

My 2 cents?
I've always beleived that when faced with a brick wall don't bloody your hands pounding on it. Go around it.
Apply for your SB 100 exemption on Jan 2 and ensure that you'll be one of the 500.

[tonyb]

At what state of completion can or should one be with the car when going to DMV, like on Jan 2nd?

[Ray]

I helped a friend of mine get his SB-100 cert. the first business day in January and he didn't have his car yet. All he had was his paperwork, including the MSO, from FFR. I did mine in 2004, roadworthy but in gel coat.

One thing though, DMV does not/will not assign a model year for SPCNS vehicles. The year of vehicle will either be "0000" or left blank. The paperwork will indicate the year that the vehicle was first registered. Any questions, feel free to contact me.

Ray

[tonyb]

I helped a friend of mine get his SB-100 cert. the first business day in January and he didn't have his car yet. All he had was his paperwork, including the MSO, from FFR. I did mine in 2004, roadworthy but in gel coat.

One thing though, DMV does not/will not assign a model year for SPCNS vehicles. The year of vehicle will either be "0000" or left blank. The paperwork will indicate the year that the vehicle was first registered. Any questions, feel free to contact me.

Ray

Good info Ray, thank you. You got yours back in 2004. How recent was your friend's experience? If it is still true that one can get things rolling so soon in the process, even before having possession of the kit, let alone the vehicle being complete, I wonder if the process must then be complete by a certain time frame, like the same calendar year?

Anyone here planning to be at the DMV on Wed Jan 02, 2013?

[Ray]

Good info Ray, thank you. You got yours back in 2004. How recent was your friend's experience? If it is still true that one can get things rolling so soon in the process, even before having possession of the kit, let alone the vehicle being complete, I wonder if the process must then be complete by a certain time frame, like the same calendar year?

Anyone here planning to be at the DMV on Wed Jan 02, 2013?

We got Ken's number in 2008 and he's still not anywhere near done. When his first reg. renewal came due, he filed a "non-op" as did I until our car was complete in 2007.

Ray

[tonyb]

We got Ken's number in 2008 and he's still not anywhere near done. When his first reg. renewal came due, he filed a "non-op" as did I until our car was complete in 2007.

Ray

That's great to hear, not that it sometimes takes a while to complete these projects, but that there's no added pressure from CA to do so within a certain span of time... Thank you.

[Oppenheimer]

I realize this is a thread for Calif. cars, however, I am in Tenn. and I have a similar problem. Below is copy from the Tenn. DMV site. The summary is, that "kit" cars will be titled as the vehicle they most resemble and is exempt from annual inspections. So now the question becomes, what the 818 most closely resembles ????? Porsche 918 might be are reasonable guess.

I have also read previously that NC is favorable toward "homebuilt/kit" cars.

Maybe we should begin a thread just for getting our 818s registered in the various States and/or possibly identify the best (most friendly) State.

Thanks,

B Batts
Nashville, TN


"Under the bill, kit cars and replica vehicles would have been assigned a certificate of title bearing the same model year designation as the production vehicle it most closely resembles. The bill exempted customs from periodic vehicle inspections and emissions inspections and from a range of standard equipment requirements. The legislation also provided for a one-time registration fee of $25, valid as long as you own the custom vehicle."

Already a thread started somewhere about rules for registering in each state. Intent was to list the rules for each state, experience with registering other FFR's, then update with real-world experience once 818 kits start being built/registered. It was organized by state.

As for what vehicle the 818 most closely resembles, it would appear that law was written without considering that kit cars might not necessarily be replicas of some other existing (registerable) car (as is case with 818). But I would expect then that the vehicle it most closely 'resembles' would be a Subaru Impreza/WRX. It only resembles it under the skin, of course.

[NicksPapaw]

There is not a state annual inspection for Tennessee. Don't know if you have to get an inspection for Nashville or not. The easiest way is to go the the DMV and ask them. They will probably have the correct answer. But, I can tell you from experience that the local DMV is not always correct. I made the local office manager mad because TN had new rules in place when I registered my roadster. He was not up to date on the changes and challenged me about my registration. Once I showed him the new state laws he got madder since I was correct. Ended up sending me to the Office of Automobile Fraud and Theft in Nashville. They called me and we all had a laugh after I explained to them that the local guy didn't know squat about his job. Got my stuff pronto. Really easy to deal with. We will all just have to ask a lot of questions as we get nearer to the builds, but I don't expect any real hassles.

[THE ITALIAN]

spcn.jpg

wooward is correct. In the absence of a comparable body, The year 1960 is used for emissions requirements.

OK .so it is just like my MK2 roadster (reg as a 1965) then this should be a no brainer . If I am correct ,since this economic bust in Calif (and I think it will only last just a few more decades) the SB 100 has NOT sold out in the last few years or if it did it took a good part of the year ,so sleeping at the San Clemente DMV parking lot is out
(I live 5 minutes away)
I remember every year before the bust , campers in the parking lot at the DMV Jan 1st.

[ploughna]

wooward is correct. In the absence of a comparable body, The year 1960 is used for emissions requirements.

Hi all

Not FFR related, but I came across this thread while searching for info relating to my situation and hoped someone might have some advice.

Does the comparable body have to be a car that was sold in the US and compliant with whatever federal emissions requirements were in place in that year? Reason I'm asking is because I'm building a replica of a car that was only built and sold in limited quantity (few hundred) in Europe from 1972-1974 with no emissions requirements whatsoever. I have my SB100 number and will request it to be registered by BodyStyle. If the BAR determine it's a 1972 model year, I need PCV, and a sealed fuel system with vapor recovery system, etc. If it's determined not similar to anything, then it'll be classified 1960 and I only need PCV.

Thanks for any advice, or if it's not clear, where would I go to find out? Call up BAR, or need to wait and see what they say on the day I show up?

Best Regards
Paul

[steve300r]

i have a question regarding the SB100 process for an 818 that i am hoping you all can help with. I plan to purchase the kit in the next month or so, and start building in May 2014.
I have read people taking their information from their order to the DMV in January and getting their SB100 before receiving the kit. Is this possible?
If i do that, how long can i wait (or is there a timeframe) after being issues by SB100 before taking the car to step 2 - visiting CHP

thanks!

[Ray]

i have a question regarding the SB100 process for an 818 that i am hoping you all can help with. I plan to purchase the kit in the next month or so, and start building in May 2014.
I have read people taking their information from their order to the DMV in January and getting their SB100 before receiving the kit. Is this possible?
If i do that, how long can i wait (or is there a timeframe) after being issues by SB100 before taking the car to step 2 - visiting CHP

thanks!

I helped a friend do this with his roadster several years ago (2007 I think.) All he had was the receipt from Factory Five and the MSO. He still hasn't finished the build and has just filed a "non-op" for registration. So, yes it is possible to do. If you have any questions, send me a PM with your phone number and we can talk you through it.

Ray

[Ray]

I would like to believe that but, in reading over your links thoroughly, I did not see a single case of someone who has actually done it that way with a modern engine. I don't care about people who HEARD this is the case, or TALKED to someone who supposedly did it.
Having lived in the Peoples' Republic of California for many years, I don't expect they will ever give you a break when they could mess you over.
If you are correct, that would be terrific however. It is just that I would like to hear it from someone who actually did it, and not with a custom built non stock engine which might slip through.

Every GTM registered in CA.......

Ray

[wleehendrick]

Every GTM registered in CA.......

Ray

Hi Ray, that's good to know, as my plan/desire is to register with SB100, choose body style, and get a 1960 designation.

I just received block off plates to remove the air pump, so I'm committing myself to that path (removing smog eqpmt).

I plan to be at the DMV Jan 2nd, just to make sure I get a #, and will have plenty of time to get her on the road within the year.

As soon as I get back into town next week, I'll let you know... plenty to do!