Aluminum Fuel Tank by Boyd Welding

[Loring]

I thought about this myself, you could use your lift pump to fill up the smaller compartment, and the return to the larger portion of the tank tank could just be a small hole at the top, remarkably simple.

Attachment 51608

That's how OEM fuel pump assemblies do it, effectively. The entire 'basket' that houses the pump has a check valve in the bottom for the pump to pull from. The return line fills the basket, or in the case of a returnless setup, the regulator is in the basket, which effectively keeps it full (and overflowing, really) at any time. As an aside, I don't have the front dimensions yet, but I was looking around at fuel tank suppliers and found something that might fit.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.ineedparts.com/heavy-duty...jeep-3829.html

[FFRSpec72]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

[RM1SepEx]

I feel weird posting this in Boyd's thread, but here goes anyway.

I think the rusting may *partially* be a one-off issue given Craig's build timeline. I recently opened my tank up after a year on the road to replace the o-rings and there was no sign of rusting inside. Perhaps the extent of rusting is related to the fact that his car isn't on the road, meaning those walls haven't had any consistent film of fuel covering them from sloshing/emptying/refilling the tank.

Also, on the fuel guage, if you bend the arm a bit, it keeps the float from dragging on the front of the tank. The bend that is already in the arm actually makes it fairly accurate once you keep it from dragging.

All that said, if I ever had to pull the interior apart again, I would most likely go ahead and swap to a Boyd tank. I almost pulled the trigger this winter, but decided to give the new o-rings a chance instead. I would consider pulling it apart just to do the Boyd tank if they come out with a design that is full size instead of narrow. I have no need to push the firewall back and hesitate to give up a portion of the already limited fuel capacity.

Bill, the float is mounted in a section of the tank that is about 1/2 as tall as the center portion of the tank, it has no physical way of indicating a level above that upper surface.... how can it be reasonably accurate? I'm guessing there is 3-4 gallons of capacity above that level

[billjr212]

Bill, the float is mounted in a section of the tank that is about 1/2 as tall as the center portion of the tank, it has no physical way of indicating a level above that upper surface.... how can it be reasonably accurate? I'm guessing there is 3-4 gallons of capacity above that level

There is a 90 degree bend in the float arm that is lined up with the step up in the tank. This allows the float to go (at least partially) up into the upper area of the tank to read full. I'm guessing it probably still leaves 1-2 gallons of space past "full" but so do some production cars, so I'm not going to knock them for that. It's more important for it to be accurate at or near empty anyway.

[matteo92065]

Or you could use Holly's HydraMat.

https://holley.com/products/fuel_systems/hydramat/s

Thanks for the possible solution.
The video on their web site was very impressive.
$200 gets the HydraMat.(PART# 16-102 is best?)
Then cut the stock Boyd pick up off, adapt to the 3/8NPT HydraMat.

Has anyone done this? Any experience out there?

[Mechie3]

I've seen the hydramat in person in a demo tank. It was floating 1/2 on top of water and still pumping. Don't know the limits of it though and how that corresponds to how much fuel you still need.

[RM1SepEx]

Fingers crossed, pulling the firewall off to look for rust... wish me luck

[AZPete]

Okay, I wish you luck on the tank, Dan, and that Spring comes soon!

[Loring]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

I just drew up something roughly that will work, and be adaptable to just about any fuel tank. Once I get my 818 (should be here Monday at the latest), I'll get some final measurements and get a prototype going.

Do we have anyone on the board that does injection molding?

[FFRSpec72]

I just drew up something roughly that will work, and be adaptable to just about any fuel tank. Once I get my 818 (should be here Monday at the latest), I'll get some final measurements and get a prototype going.

Do we have anyone on the board that does injection molding?

There are a number of these out there for around $200 http://www.polyperformance.com/Fuel-...Tank-Collector

[RM1SepEx]

Okay, I wish you luck on the tank, Dan, and that Spring comes soon!

No rust in the tank! Forecast is for a multiple inch noreaster Sunday PM, Spring isn't here yet although I've taken 3 Miatas and 3 motorcycles out of storage

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Need a collector box for the pump(s) that will hold enough fuel for 5 or so seconds with check valves to not let fuel out

Hi Tony
Don (DMC7492) built a surge tank using the jet pump.
wrx 08+ uses this assembly:

DSC_4302.jpg

I believe it does the surge tank feature.
Bob

[DMC7492]

Yes I have a cup in my tank, I tryed to have a check valve in the bottom. First was a stainless ball about 3/16" but it weighed too much. To get fuel in the cup I had over 2.5 inches in the tank that's about 2.5 gallons. Then I tryed a Vito's ball. It wanted to float and not seal the cup. I settled for a 1/8" hole in the bottom. With the SARDS jet pump. It takes fuel from outside of the cup and dumps into the cup,along with the return fuel from the pump. In about thirty seconds the cup which is nine inches tall is full totally submerging the pump even when the tank has 1 inch of fuel. The gas gauge warning light is on.
I have ran it but not on the street or track yet. That's next month in cart form!
image.jpg
image.jpg

[Loring]

There are a number of these out there for around $200 http://www.polyperformance.com/Fuel-...Tank-Collector

Thanks for posting that. My design is slightly smaller than the ID of the fuel pump opening, so you should be able to drop it in.

As far as a check valve goes, use a flapper for lower profile. You should be able to get fill at less than 1/4". You can add a jet pickup directly below the pump opening for extra fill action if needed. For pumps with a level sender, its easy to make provisions for it externally.

[Mechie3]

How does the stealth pump attach to the Boyd tank? Welded flange on the tank with screws inserted top down into the tank? The 340 kits are about $350 while pumps alone are $115. I'd rather make my own block.

[flynntuna]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.

[nkw8181]

I ended up putting in a radium surge tank over a custom tank with foam that had to be replaced every what.. 5 years.

[GoDadGo]

Please consider building a tank that would fit the MK-Series, FIA and Type 65 that would hold additional fuel.

There is enough room in the rear of these cars so that tank could be constructed to yield a larger capacity over the Mustang piece. In additino, the tank could be designed where it increases the rear crush zone all while making the rear quick jacks and/or bumper bolts a snap to install.

Shown below are just a few reasons to construct such a piece:

1. It would extend our cruising range.
2. If properly designed, would give us additional room between the tank ant the tail end of the frame.
3. The tank, if baffled would reduce fuel sloshing so handling would be improved in addition to the added strength of the tank.
4. It could be designed to fit in the exact location and stock mounting tabs so retrofitting would be an easy weekend job.
5. The fun factor is looking cool, especially if different color powder coatings were offered.

Heck, maybe Factory Five might consider building such a piece or contracting your company to supply them.
Just some food for thought from the Peanut Gallery!

[David Hodgkins]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

[David Hodgkins]

Please consider building a tank that would fit the MK-Series, FIA and Type 65 that would hold additional fuel.

There is enough room in the rear of these cars so that tank could be constructed to yield a larger capacity over the Mustang piece. In additino, the tank could be designed where it increases the rear crush zone all while making the rear quick jacks and/or bumper bolts a snap to install.

Shown below are just a few reasons to construct such a piece:

1. It would extend our cruising range.
2. If properly designed, would give us additional room between the tank ant the tail end of the frame.
3. The tank, if baffled would reduce fuel sloshing so handling would be improved in addition to the added strength of the tank.
4. It could be designed to fit in the exact location and stock mounting tabs so retrofitting would be an easy weekend job.
5. The fun factor is looking cool, especially if different color powder coatings were offered.

Heck, maybe Factory Five might consider building such a piece or contracting your company to supply them.
Just some food for thought from the Peanut Gallery!

I remember some time back folks talking about another Ford tank that is 20 gallons instead of 16. I think it's either the Lincoln Town Car, Crown Victoria or Mark VIII. It doesn't kick down like the mustang tank, and has the same depth all the way across...

[Mechie3]

I think someone got lost in the 818 section.

I got an email back from Boyd. They said they will not build a tank within a tank. Here's the email:

"As for the Swirl pot we will not built [sic] a tank with another tank inside it unless they are both independent of each other and could be removed. In other words, if you designed a notch into your larger tank and a smaller tank fit in that pocket that would not be a problem."

I'm not sure what is meant by designing a notch and then the issue of being able to seal a hole in the top of the tank big enough to put a swirl pot into. He just wrote back saying "Sumps are not a big deal fabrication speaking they were just never part of the designs." I wrote back asking if he was referring to modifying existing tanks vs making a new design from scratch.

I came up with two designs yesterday. Both might only work with the original style firewall. The smaller one (rectangle) is about 14 gallons, the larger one (angled front) is about 17 gallons.

[Mechie3]

Boyds wrote back. He was thinking my sump comment was in regards to adding one to the 818 tank, not to a brand new tank design.

[longislandwrx]

he may not be following what you mean, maybe some cad drawings will get you on the same page.

by notch, I am thinking he means create a void in the outside of the tank that another tank fits into, 100% independent.

I cant imagine it would be hard to do what we suggested, but then again, I am not a welder.



edit/ oh that makes sense.

[Mechie3]

I've got all my dimensions on a paper. Just need to model it and send drawings.

[GoDadGo]

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

Good Information To Know! Thanks!

[Mechie3]

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

What does that mean as far as discussing Boyd parts as per forum rules?

[David Hodgkins]

Is Boyd no longer a vendor? They're not on the vendor page.

No, Boyd Welding is no longer a vendor on this site.

What does that mean as far as discussing Boyd parts as per forum rules?

That's a good question. I think the first thing I need to do is have a chat with the folks at Boyd before I make any statements about how to move forward. I think the conversation needs to be had about how to handle references to former vendors, but that may be a discussion best had in the abstract, as opposed to this particular instance, at this time.

Let me reach out to them and see if there is any chance at reinstatement before I talk about their particular case.

[Mechie3]

I sent my drawing to Boyd but need to make a couple changes. I can take a pic later. Essentially it's a rectangular tank with a separate section on one end for an in tank surge tank. I'm wondering what (if anything) I should do for the lift pump. Put a small baffle around it with holes to let fuel in/out slowly? Would this risk starving it as fuel couldn't get in fast enough (and if it could get in fast enough, it would get out fast too)?

Ideally something with the fuel trap doors or a little box with check vales in it but that gets expensive quick.

[C.Plavan]

I sent my drawing to Boyd but need to make a couple changes. I can take a pic later. Essentially it's a rectangular tank with a separate section on one end for an in tank surge tank. I'm wondering what (if anything) I should do for the lift pump. Put a small baffle around it with holes to let fuel in/out slowly? Would this risk starving it as fuel couldn't get in fast enough (and if it could get in fast enough, it would get out fast too)?

Ideally something with the fuel trap doors or a little box with check vales in it but that gets expensive quick.

http://pyrotectstore.com/product/collector-tanks/

[Mechie3]

I think I just need the check valves. I found them cheaper here:

http://fuelsafe.com/store/fuel-deliv...ves/cv100.html

Needed the word "collector tank" to add to my search, so thanks for the link. I'll just have the box itself built into the bottom of the tank.

[Loring]

Mechie, the rubber flap style are a couple bucks a piece.

[Mechie3]

I did some searching last night. It looks like the rubber style ones are meant to be replaced yearly and are intended more as a rollover valve for large ports on a fuel cell, not as check valves. They require either a spring loaded mechanism behind it or the weight of the fuel on top of it (if you're upside down) to seal.

I'm thinking now of two options which are shown in glorious MS Paint:

First photo: How my tank design looks today. Rectangle tank, baffle sealing off all but top 1/2" on left (passenger) side for a surge tank. Return is via the top 1/2" being unsealed/welded (yellow). It allows for a max depth of 7" of fuel but you'll lose some to slosh on right hand turns. Still more than enough. pump in main area (red) feeds surge (orange), pump in surge area (red) feeds engine (purple) return from engine is into surge (dark blue).

Pros: simple, least cost
Cons: Potential to starve main pump with low fuel levels. The holley hydromat could be added ($200+) but I've heard they can't be cleaned so if it's ever clogged....bye bye $200.

Second: Build in two baffles (blue) on either side of the main pump pickup and add check valves (green). This is similar to the collector tanks you can buy but, for $200 it's probably cheaper to weld in two baffles in a tank and install two check valves myself. The baffles could even be arranged in a V to funnel gas from the left or right into the check valve. The rest of the operation is the same as teh first photo.

Pro: Near max fuel capacity, less change of starving main pump
Cons: Highest cost (due to check valves)

Third: Build in a ramp (blue). The lowest part becomes a built in sump. Normally this would be the lowest spot but I don't want a sump under the car so to make it the "lowest" the ramp must be raised up.

Pros: Fuel collector action without expensive check valves
Cons: Lowest fuel capacity (how much is lost? Not sure yet)

Thoughts?

[Mechie3]

A fourth option would be the third image with no surge tank on the side. Just use the build in fuel collector as a sort of surge tank. not as good as full blown surge, and you'd lose volume, but good enough?

[flynntuna]

Instead of welding in ramps in the tank in the third example, just weld the tank as a trapezoid (flip the example over )and weld a leg to it to help support it. Just thinking out loud

[FFRSpec72]

I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

[longislandwrx]

I think option 1 is perfect, both in simplicity and performance the capacity of the "surge tank" will be enough to prevent starvation at all but the lowest fuel levels. If you need to get every last drop, agreed, get a hydromat.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Craig,
I like idea #1, but why use a second pump. Use the free jet pump like stock Subaru.

jetpump.jpg

[Mechie3]

Instead of welding in ramps in the tank in the third example, just weld the tank as a trapezoid (flip the example over )and weld a leg to it to help support it. Just thinking out loud

That would be the intent. It wouldn't have a bottom, just the sides so the whole front acts as a leg. No point in adding extra cost with hard to weld edges.

I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

Good to know, thanks.

I think option 1 is perfect, both in simplicity and performance the capacity of the "surge tank" will be enough to prevent starvation at all but the lowest fuel levels. If you need to get every last drop, agreed, get a hydromat.

I'm kind of leaning back to this route. Maybe I'll add in the little baffles with the 1" holes but not put in the check valves. If I end up needing them later I can add them later.

[STiPWRD]

I did find out that the stock fuel pump controller can't handle 2 Aeromotive pumps so I had to wire in a second stock fuel pump controller (1 controller 1 pump) and both pumps sharing the same connection to the ECU.

Tony, are you worried about the increased current draw of the Aeromotive pump on the stock fuel controller? This is one thing I was going to go back and double check the wire gauge. I'm running the Aeromotove 340 that came with the Boyd tank, which can draw as much as 16-17 amps, while the stock controller was designed to operate a stock pump, which only draws 8-9 amps. I got my data from these sites:

http://realstreetperformance.com/Fue...ison-Test.html

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ootout-part-2/

The car drives fine but I haven't really pushed it to the point where I'm maxing out the pump and drawing the highest current. I'm just concerned the stock wires are under sized and that the controller internals may also be under designed.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, are you worried about the increased current draw of the Aeromotive pump on the stock fuel controller?

Yes as the pumps I have can draw up to 15-18 amps and the controller can handle 20 amps so I was getting failures and had to install a second controller and folks with even single high performance pumps may have amp draw issues