Power Steering: Worth the Weight and Expense?

[Kirbert]

I want to hear from owners of Type '65 Coupes *without* power steering. Was that a mistake? Do you now wish you had gotten the power steering?

[edwardb]

I assume you know the Coupe and the Roadster share the exact suspension components? And other than the slightly longer wheelbase, they are essentially the same setup? I would also suggest your best input will be from owners who have had both and it doesn't need to be only Coupe owners. Those with only manual steering will typically say they don't "need" power steering, and that's fine. I maintain until you've tried it you may not fully understand the benefits. Reduced effort plus increased caster which dramatically improves how it drives. This is widely a debated subject with strong opinions on both sides. There are multiple threads. Obviously I'm an advocate of power steering, and yes, I've had both (in Roadsters). My Coupe build, like the last two Roadsters, has power steering from the start. Let's just say many have added power steering after their build was completed and they started driving. I've seen one maybe two that didn't like it and removed.

[wallace18]

I have had both a Type 65 w/o P/S and MK4 with P/S. IMO the P/S is a must have. I ended up installing Electric P/S on my Type 65. It just makes the driving so much better, IMO.

[Clover]

If you are concerned with weight, I assume you are intending to track the car. If you are doing that, you are likely going to be using wide sticky rubber up front. You have to keep in mind that as you add grip to the front tires, it will also add effort to turn them. I had been thinking of going with manual steering thinking that I would like it to feel like a throw back. Dave Smith said something about the Type 65 Coupe being his favorite because when he got behind the wheel, he felt like Dan Gurney. That has an appeal for sure. However, when I considered that this was not going to be like my old car with 6.5" wide tires and manual steering, it was going to be a race car with 11" sticky rubber and manual steering; I came to realize that may be a bit much for my lazy enjoyment. I want to do some Autocrossing each year and I think constantly turning with race rubber could potentially be too much to keep up with at times for me. As a result, I ordered power steering for my kit. You should consider what type of driving you want to do and what size and type of tire you will be running in my opinion.

[Kirbert]

OK, I think that clears it up! Thanks! Power steering it is!

[Kirbert]

Now, can someone please explain why the Coyote engine involves a different -- and more expensive -- power steering package than other engines?

[edwardb]

Now, can someone please explain why the Coyote engine involves a different -- and more expensive -- power steering package than other engines?

There isn't OE engine driven power steering available for the Coyote. Ford uses standalone electric racks on the Mustang and F150 (and probably most everything else any more) and never designed or installed an engine mounted/driven PS pump for the Coyote. So the only thing available is aftermarket. What Factory Five is offering for the Coyote is KRC, which is a high end setup with bracketry and a pulley that bolts right onto the Coyote. Very high quality. Has the added advantage of changeable flow control valves to adjust the boost. But they're not cheap, hence the price. I have the KRC setup in my Coyote powered Anniversary Roadster. Perfect. https://www.krcpower.com/

There is an alternative to use an adapter bracket and an OE style mod motor pump. Maybe save a couple hundred bucks. But it's not as high quality and takes the space of the factory position for the A/C pump. Since some, especially Coupe builders, want A/C looks like Factory Five standardized on the KRC setup.

[Clover]

I don't know for sure but the Coyote is a large engine in terms of its overall size. It is noticeably larger then an LS3 which is 6.2L. If you are not doing AC, you may be able to use a different power steering kit. I think there may have been two options for a bit but I am not sure if they would both work with a Coyote. I am sure a few guys can tell you exactly what does not work with other kits though. I kind of wondered about finding a rack with a tighter turning ratio. I thought something that had only one full rotation to lock would be cool but I could be a fool. My BMW is super tight and responsive which is what I like best about it.

[edwardb]

I don't know for sure but the Coyote is a large engine in terms of its overall size. It is noticeably larger then an LS3 which is 6.2L. If you are not doing AC, you may be able to use a different power steering kit. I think there may have been two options for a bit but I am not sure if they would both work with a Coyote. I am sure a few guys can tell you exactly what does not work with other kits though.

Maybe our posts crossed. There was another option before but now the KRC one is offered. I think these points are addressed in my post #7. It's not related to size.

I kind of wondered about finding a rack with a tighter turning ratio. I thought something that had only one full rotation to lock would be cool but I could be a fool. My BMW is super tight and responsive which is what I like best about it.

Most common (pretty sure) and what I've used and like is a 3 turn rack. It's very quick but not scary. Some guys prefer a tighter ratio. Like 2.5 or even 2.25. I haven't driven them, but apparently are lightening quick. 1 turn rack? Uh, no.

[Clover]

Sorry, I did not see post 7 when writing my response. I also was referring to 1 360 degree rotation from center to lock which you would consider a 2 I guess. I should have been more clear in my earlier post. My BMW is 2.25 I think. A little over a full rotation of the wheel from center to lock. I wish it was just a bit tighter for two specific corners on my local track which I have to take one hand off the wheel at the end of my arm lock turn. Again, I could be a fool for wanting something that tight, but the tighter rack just seems to make cars feel both more responsive and more tossable to me.

[beav]

Reduced effort plus increased caster which dramatically improves how it drives.

Hey Edward,

I don't understand how power steering would increase caster. Isn't the castor angle entirely defined by the geometry of the upper and lower control arms plus the spindle?

thanks,

Jason

[David Hodgkins]

Hey Edward,

I don't understand how power steering would increase caster. Isn't the castor angle entirely defined by the geometry of the upper and lower control arms plus the spindle?

thanks,

Jason

Running power steering ALLOWS you to run more caster...

[edwardb]

Running power steering ALLOWS you to run more caster...

Thanks for the quick answer. The usual specs for alignment are 3 degrees positive caster for manual steering, 6 degrees (or more) for power steering. Increasing the amount of positive caster increases the steering effort, which is why the higher number requires power assist. The increased caster improves straight line tracking, high speed stability, and cornering effectiveness. A well aligned manual setup drives fine. A well aligned power setup with the increased caster drives even better. I personally found it especially noticeable when highway cruising. The car is just more settled and relaxed.

[mburger]

On my Mk1 I’ve had manual and now power steering. I’m running 8 degrees caster and it drives great. Edward I can’t agree more.

[MPTech]

I run PS on my MK4 and never regretted it. I added a Heidts valve last year and was able to turn the PS down a little and it was even better (also recommend running Honda PS fluid).

If I was building a roadster or coupe now, I'd take it to the next level and look into Electric PS and it may solve some of your Coyote issues space and setup issues, too. Additionally, it can be adjusted on-the-fly from the dash to fine tune it. I've also heard some systems are set for more PS at low speed (parking lots / backing up) and reduce assist at higher speed (hiway). This is what I would look into.

[DetactGarageMech]

I run PS on my MK4 and never regretted it. I added a Heidts valve last year and was able to turn the PS down a little and it was even better (also recommend running Honda PS fluid).

If I was building a roadster or coupe now, I'd take it to the next level and look into Electric PS and it may solve some of your Coyote issues space and setup issues, too. Additionally, it can be adjusted on-the-fly from the dash to fine tune it. I've also heard some systems are set for more PS at low speed (parking lots / backing up) and reduce assist at higher speed (hiway). This is what I would look into.

Anyone with driving experience using variable output PS system as mentioned?

[Kirbert]

Thanks for the great info! I'm aware that many modern cars have electric power steering -- it's the first step toward self-driving, I think -- but I have no idea how it works. Is this something that could be added to a manual or hydraulic power rack, or does it involve an entirely new rack?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Power steering all the way. Edwardb and I are probably it's two biggest cheerleaders here for the reasons he detailed plus if you have any intentions of ever tracking or autocrossing the car effectively it's virtually mandatory. Electric over hydraulic (i.e., like Fast Freddies) drives and feels like engine driven hydraulic but offers some different packaging options. I've driven a roadster with electric assist steering and am not a fan; coming off center it felt spooky.

Jeff

[edwardb]

Anyone with driving experience using variable output PS system as mentioned?

I'm personally not aware of any aftermarket options that provide automatic variable output like many modern DD's. Those are tied to the car's computer monitoring speed, traction, torque, steering angle, user settings, etc., and adjust accordingly. Like other modern features (e.g. traction control, ABS, airbags, etc.) are highly engineered for specific vehicles and integrated into multiple systems. Not easily duplicated in our builds, if even possible. At least for the average builder and given the safety aspects, not something I would personally recommend. As mentioned though, there are aftermarket electric assist options that provide a manual control for the driver to adjust.

Thanks for the great info! I'm aware that many modern cars have electric power steering -- it's the first step toward self-driving, I think -- but I have no idea how it works. Is this something that could be added to a manual or hydraulic power rack, or does it involve an entirely new rack?

Ran across this article about EPAS (Electric Power Assisted Steering). Explains it way better than I could. https://www.carthrottle.com/post/ele...-does-it-work/. Not aware that an integrated rack system is available for our builds. Like what is used on the current Mustang. ($1000 part BTW.) There are though, as I mentioned above, a couple aftermarket options for adding assist to the steering column itself. As shown in this article. I personally have no experience with them. I've done traditional hydraulic pump setups -- one electric driven (Fast Freddies) -- and the others engine driven. Tried and true and work fine.

[CraigS]

Here ya go.
http://www.fastfreddiesfabrications....p?id_product=4

[mike223]

Anyone with driving experience using variable output PS system as mentioned?

I've been running the Saturn Vue EPAS on a Mk4 for about a year and a half - very happy with it - adjusts from no power assist to one finger steering with the potentiometer - even running 315s on the front.

If you use the Speedhut gauges you even have room for it between the firewall and the dash.

If you have some fabrication + pull a part skills you can pretty easily do this for under $500.


To answer the quoted question - the speed signal on this particular unit has to come in on the communications bus as a numeric message.

There's a guy from Portugal (Bruno) on ebay that makes kits (black box stuff) for these units - and I see he has added a variable speed kit to his line.


Like I said, I've been very happy with the operation of the unit (but no experience with the automatic variable speed input).


Base unit - no speed input ebay

Base unit + speed input

[Kirbert]

- adjusts from no power assist to one finger steering with the potentiometer -

Lemme get this straight: You're running variable power assist that is adjusted manually? Dial up some assist when you want it?

[mike223]

Exactly.

Works - "perfect".

[Kirbert]

If you just dial the EPAS to one particular level of boost and leave it there, it behaves pretty much just like a hydraulically boosted system?

[mike223]

Yes.

With the unit unpowered, or with the potentiometer turned down - you wouldn't know it was there.

With the potentiometer turned all the way up you can turn the wheel with one finger (car not moving).

I run it about halfway.


The manual rack in my Mk4 is not bad - but not something I'm going to want to wrestle with (with two hands) in + out of parking spaces in ten years.

I started experimenting with home brew EPAS because I didn't want the extra plumbing.

I went all in when I found I could fit it between the firewall + dash.

[Kirbert]

Is there anything special about the Saturn Vue system? And can we presume the Chevy Equinox is the same?

[Kirbert]

The Saturn Vue system utilizes the manual rack from FFR? So, the entire system fits behind the dash?

[Kirbert]

OK, here's a brand new part:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/fi...teering-column

So, what else is needed? How is it installed? And how do you connect a pot?

Offhand, this idea is looking much more attractive to me than the KRC system that FFR offers.

[edwardb]

The Saturn Vue system utilizes the manual rack from FFR? So, the entire system fits behind the dash?

Yes. Those kind of systems are putting assist onto the steering shaft of a manual steering rack. You're asking about a Gen 3 Coupe, right? Keep in mind those are pretty new, not too many out there, and I personally haven't seen anything other than traditional hydraulic power steering being installed. So you're not likely to get answers with actual experience. What I can tell you is (1) There's no way the power unit is going to fit behind the dash on the Gen 3 Coupe. Just looked again to confirm. The space is limited as it is plus it's packed with others stuff. (2) There might be room on the steering shaft in the engine compartment. It's going to depend on what engine you use. This is where the Saturn unit is typically installed on the Roadster BTW. Not behind the dash. I believe as well the Unisteer system (similar to the Saturn, same idea) that Factory Five specs for the '33 Hot Rod is also installed in the engine compartment. I believe a couple of those have been installed in Roadsters as well. Nice looking unit, but pricey.

In simple terms, the steering shaft is separated and the power assist unit is installed in-line. With adapters and from what I've seen welding also. The balance of the details are going to need to come from someone who's actually installed one. I was sort of considering something like this for my Coupe build until I received feedback from Jeff and several others. You might want to re-read post #18. I respect his opinion and experience enough that I went KRC hydraulic. It's perfect in my Roadster and expect it to be the same in the Coupe.

[mike223]

OK, here's a brand new part:

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/fi...teering-column

So, what else is needed? How is it installed? And how do you connect a pot?

Ok, the complete set of answers is going to require more than casual internet attention span - It probably deserves a dedicated thread.

The part you have listed is the right part, but appears to have the non recommended computer - the black plastic housing as opposed to a metal housed unit.

Bruno says it will not work with his black box, every one I have tried actually seems to function "perfectly" - I emailed him to ask why, but he did not answer.

The Saturn Vue / Chevy Equinox unit will not do anything by itself - it requires a signal off the serial bus to tell it what model of car it is installed in and what speed the car is moving at. If it does not receive this numeric message it will not function.

This is where Bruno's black box comes in - Bruno's black box on ebay - this is the first "must have" part, and the listing has pictures of the recommended metal cased computer unit.

The metal cased computer has additional potentiometers that allow for adjustment in case you detect something like "turns easier to the right than left" etc.

You can harvest these easily at pull-a-part in very satisfactory condition for ~$60 - I harvested several for spares (I haven't needed any spares).

To mount it between the firewall and dash on a Mk4, you have to fabricate a bracket to mount the computer at a different angle - not a big project, but it won't fit in there in the oem position.

You need the piece of tubing that mounts to the three holes toward the driver (part of steering column) - I cut these with a hacksaw at pull-a-part so I can buy the EPAS for $60, rather than the steering column + EPAS for $120... Use a short piece of that tubing to locate the steering column up and down in the dash (more on this coming).

In the Mk4 - cut off the plate that mounts the steering bearing closest to the driver. Fabricate a plate that mounts to the 2x2 tubing with two tabs sticking up so you can mount the EPAS to the tabs in the oem manner - (tilt wheel) - then capture the aforementioned tubing in the dash panel (to eliminate tilting). You could get as cute as necessary with this if you wanted to fabricate a sturdier mount (probably recommended).

You will need something to adapt the output shaft to the Mk4 steering shaft. I used a midwestern steering manufacturer's part that they list as 17mm x 36 spline - fits perfect (link tomorrow off different computer). I see several people are selling these now and calling it 16.5mm x 36 spline - all I know is I tried several answers before I found something that fit "right". You will need a u-joint in this area, so something like a 17 (or 16.5)mm x 36 spline to 3/4" dd u-joint would work nicely (maybe this: http://www.epowersteering.com/purcha...mooth-u-joint/


On the input side I used a quick release steering wheel hub - bore the hub to fit the splined shaft on the EPAS unit. I mounted the hub to the EPAS using flat headed allen screws with loktite (I would not recommend welding to the EPAS unit - computer and all).


That's about it - yes I see Jeff drove one once and he didn't like it.

All I can say is mine works perfectly - But like everything else on these cars I'm certain it's easier to put it in and get it "wrong" than to get everything "just right" the first time.

Speaking of not welding to the EPAS unit (computer and all) I would not have used it if I had to mount it in the engine compartment for the same reason I would not weld to it.

I find it difficult (but not impossible) to imagine that there is less room in the dash / firewall area in the Gen 3 coupe than in the Mk4 - but I haven't gotten a good look at the Gen 3 coupe.


I will try to get some pictures of my Mk 4 installation uploaded in the next few days.

[WIS89]

For any of this interested, I thought I would add a solution I stumbled across. While it is certainly not an inexpensive option, I thought there would at least be some interest in this solution. It certainly appears to be a complete solution, with the brains as well as a manual adjustment all included.

Moreover, I thought that this bodes well, as it suggests that there may end up being additional solutions by others, bringing the price down. As it stands, there is a pretty significant barrier to entry vis-a-vis the price!

Here is the EPAS solution I came across randomly at JEGs: https://www.jegs.com/i/EPAS-Performa.../1012/10002/-1

Perhaps someone will have the resources and the will to give it a try.

Regards,

Steve

[Kirbert]

I don't mind the notion of an EPAS with a simple pot for setting the assist desired; as discussed, that means it's still better than hydraulic assist which is fixed with no adjustability at all. But if one wanted to go a step toward active variability, it'd probably be excellent to merely vary the assist based on road speed. Namely, fixed from 10 MPH up, and gradually increasing in assist from 10 MPH down to stationary. If someone could come up with a little "black box" to provide that function, I think most customers would be happy with it.

[edwardb]

I don't mind the notion of an EPAS with a simple pot for setting the assist desired; as discussed, that means it's still better than hydraulic assist which is fixed with no adjustability at all... But if one wanted to go a step toward active variability, it'd probably be excellent to merely vary the assist based on road speed. Namely, fixed from 10 MPH up, and gradually increasing in assist from 10 MPH down to stationary. If someone could come up with a little "black box" to provide that function, I think most customers would be happy with it.

Just for the record, and maybe this is just a matter of semantics, but a more accurate statement would be hydraulic assist isn't adjustable while driving. How important that might be is a personal choice. There are several ways to adjust the boost of hydraulic systems to give the desired amount. One common example is a Heidts valve. http://www.heidts.com/part/adjustabl...-valve-ps-101/. Common to hear guys using one setting for street driving and another on the track or auto-x. But the adjustment is underhood. I personally don't need to be able to change the boost frequently (99.9% street driving) and find the flow valves used by KRC give me what I need. I have the smallest one available, for the least boost, in Roadster #8674 and planning the same setup for the Coupe build. I'm very happy with it. https://www.krcpower.com/files/flow_valve2013Tech.pdf.

[mike223]

Namely, fixed from 10 MPH up, and gradually increasing in assist from 10 MPH down to stationary. If someone could come up with a little "black box" to provide that function, I think most customers would be happy with it.

Review this ebay link from post #21 above:

Base unit + speed input


I'm working on a Mk4 pull-a-part EPAS how to thread.

[Logan]

@mike223 - Any update on the EPAS development/info?

I’m not sold on the reliability under racing conditions, but I like the idea of eliminating HP loss from a traditional belt driven PS pump and the complexity of the fluid lines. I wonder how many folks race with electric power steering...

[mike223]

@mike223 - Any update on the EPAS development/info?

I’m not sold on the reliability under racing conditions, but I like the idea of eliminating HP loss from a traditional belt driven PS pump and the complexity of the fluid lines. I wonder how many folks race with electric power steering...

I am completely sold on the reliability under all conditions (including racing) - and find the complexity + failure modes of hydraulic lines / pumps / belts / etc to be far more unacceptable (to me) than pull-a-part EPAS.

There certainly may be a different "feel" to it, which can vary depending on what exactly you try to do with it - "best feel" will be when you have the torque sensor "at" the steering wheel (not the common installation).

Glad you're interested - it works pretty well.


Here is a good thread with the specifics of harvesting one at pull-a-part: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...an-Equinox-Vue

Here is my Mk4 pull-a-part EPAS installation thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ll-A-Part-EPAS

Here is a more typical (I think) installation: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...nother-Convert!

Here a thread where the topic of where the torque sensor is located comes into play (it hadn't occurred to me until this thread): https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...nment-Question