Ways the 818 kit could be improved

[fletch]

This is my attempt to keep other threads that ask for assistance free from comments about how you think the 818 kit is deficient. I'm trying to build the car I have, not some 818 of the future, so your help in those other threads is greatly appreciated. I would not have undertaken this project without all of you and your pioneering work and willingness to share. I'm serious about that. Never would I have thought I had the skills & abilities to overcome this challenge without this forum as a resource. In order to keep the value of those threads as high as possible, I'm creating this thread.

Please post your thoughts here about how you think the 818 kit could be improved. I would encourage you to make the comments constructive. Thank you.

[lance corsi]

Fletch, I too have gained lots from this experience. I may not have taken on such a challenge if I had known how much there is to all of it. I want to say now that I love my car! I’m not mad at anyone for having bought it. It has been a virtual odyssey throughout. I’m glad that FFR created this platform. I had thoughts of just such a car for several years before I found this one. Now, anything I say is meant only to enhance the quality or ease of build, so I don’t want people thinking that I’m bashing FFR. Any improvements will benefit others and help sell more cars.
Okay, start with the motor mounts.
Next, I would have a look at the door window setup.
How about an optional front mount gas tank?
More cockpit leg room.
More front tire clearance from firewall.
How bout door-to-body seals?
Floor pans on my car were severely warped. Had to replace them.
Better shift mechanism than cables.
Real bumpers for those who live in states which require them.

Okay I’m finished for now. But, realize that some of these things could be offered as kits or stages.

[mikeb75]

Funny, was thinking about this exact thing in my idle time, some additions to lance's excellent list:
- Less front overhang/ move front axel forward
- Leveling of the transmission
- Rear strut brace/engine clearance
- Better clearance of the other structural elements around the engine bay
- Bigger/more functional roof scoop (or other solution) for A2A intercooler in coupe

[FFRWRX]

It seems to me that the intention was for ways the 818 quality could be improved. The suggestions here are more how it should be completed redesigned. Can't see that FF is going to pay any attention to things like this.

On ways to improve it, I emailed them with very specific ways the door windows could be improved, that would be a fairly easy mod. They email back with reasons they are the way they are, and it really didn't make a lot of sense. All it would take are small changes to the shape of the glass and the windows could go up and down nicely. Unless it is a safely issue, I don't think FF is interested in improving this car. Will it be the same as the Spider from years ago?

[Hobby Racer]

It seems to me that the intention was for ways the 818 quality could be improved. The suggestions here are more how it should be completed redesigned. Can't see that FF is going to pay any attention to things like this.

+1

... Unless it is a safely issue, I don't think FF is interested in improving this car. Will it be the same as the Spider from years ago?

Unfortunately I agree. Unlike the roadster that is their bread and butter, the low price and low production numbers of the 818 means that it is unlikely to get much time or money spent on enhancements.

But just in case FFR is keep track, it would be nice to improve the quality of the fiberglass bodies. IMHO it is one of the largest complaints and costs involved with completing any of the FFR kits.

[Mechie3]

Unless it is a safely issue, I don't think FF is interested in improving this car.

I think it's complicated. lol. At the beginning, those of us with early kits made lots of suggestions. They came back with why it can't be changed and then slowly we started to see a lot of our suggestions quietly baked into the kit. There's certainly the time and cost factor, but there are also, IMO, other reasons why they don't take suggestions from "outsiders", if you catch my drift.

As for ways to improve the kit? Check my website. On a more serious note: The shifting. Whether you get my shifter and bell crank or make your own, change the shifting. The plastic unit with 15 foot cables looping forward then back is not good. A straight back design with 7/8 foot cables is so much better. For the S, make the engine cover and the trunk lid one piece. Takes a lot of body work, but removes a ton of complex body lines that don't line up nicely no matter what you do. Almost all the things I make for the car are things that I wasn't happy with myself and others felt the same way. A lot of the body pieces/vents are aesthetic for the most part, but the shifter/bell crank is the one thing that is a necessity.

[Hojo]

Acknowledge the bump steer problem and include the Baer or some other kit.

[Dave 53]

My windshield didn't fit flat in the S frame. Maybe it's a better fit on the C?
My door opening lever didn't line up with the metal frame. I had to weld a tab.

[Newkitguy]

I think one of the biggest things would be the transmission leveling. Its really something that needs addressed just from a mechanical issue stance. some of the other things are comfort but not crucial for operation as a vehicle. I certainly think that A2W should be standard or a solution for the lack luster A2A performance especially in coupe models. I also wished that they offered A/c much like they do with the GTM as an option instead of those of us that have retro fit a kit. windows ALWAYS plague kit cars. Some companies choose to just go with immoveable lexan or glass so from that aspect i'm grateful that they at least tried to have quality glass and window mechanisms. I feel that they could be improved a ton but it would take a lot more hours then I feel FF would dedicate to something like that. (hindsight I wish i didn't even cut for windows in my coupe). This being a low cost Kit surely shows and leaves a lot of room for improvement but if they refined it as much as anyone would like, I'm sure the cost would rise quite a bit which would really eliminate it from a lot of considerations.

[lance corsi]

The bump steer problem could be fixed easily by changing the height of the steering rack. No bump steer kit needed.

[J R Jones]

Lance, "fixed easily" is a strong phrase. The bump steer kit drops the outer tie rod end 2 7/16 inches. Raising the rack up that far would not be easy. IMO that configuration would look odd compared to lower control arm angle.
I am wary of odd.
I do not know if the kit results in perfect bump steer or Subaru bump steer. I look forward to getting into that.
BTW I did reference the 818R supplement. As in my 818S Assembly Manual, the tech writer's skill is so bad I have to interpret. Clearly not a pro and no editor checking his work. I end up cross referencing everything.
jim

[Sgt.Gator]

Skip up to 8 mins....

[lance corsi]

I’m hopeful. It’s really their only car that gets decent gas mileage. It is worth developing.

[lance corsi]

Okay, let’s try an update. Windows. Aside from the obvious door window problems, I can see another glaring defect. The windshield and side windows are deeply set into the body. Why not flush-mount the glass? It would improve fuel mileage as well as reduce wind noise. Also, the rear hatch is attached to the roll bar, necessitating realignment if the top is removed. Why not mount the hatch hinges on the roof underside? That would facilitate top removal and reinstall.
Next, I’d like to address headlights. I know that this is the second attempt to produce a headlight bucket that can actually be adjusted for beam pattern. Now, I’ve gotten as far as mounting my front body panels and even mounted one headlight according to the instructions but I’ve encountered a problem. The logo “Hella” on the bottom of the front lens is not level. I’m assuming that when properly mounted, this logo should be more or less level. I’ve read another build thread that indicates this is not just my car. With an angled beam pattern, adjustment is futile. It looks to be as simple as the plastic adapter behind the bucket is improperly clocked. This should be fixed. It would require only an alteration to the glue-up fixture. This is a problem that we should not have.

[Larry J W]

You are correct, they missed the mark for the second time with the headlights. I had to modify the holder by about 10 degrees. It was an earlier upgrade. I have not seen many post on the subject. I hope they corrected it on later production.

Larry

[FFRWRX]

OK, how about a simple one. The inner door pulls are mounted to the plastic inner door panel, not to any metal structure. So it seems like it is designed to try and pull the inner door panel off when closing the door. How can FF, with all their resources and intelligence, design something like this?

[NevaLift2Shift]

OK, how about a simple one. The inner door pulls are mounted to the plastic inner door panel, not to any metal structure. So it seems like it is designed to try and pull the inner door panel off when closing the door. How can FF, with all their resources and intelligence, design something like this?

So I did the simplest thing I could think of. Door pulls like a race car. Cut a small slit through the door panel, and bolted one of these to the door frame.

sabelt_door_pulls.jpg

[Dave 53]

OK, how about a simple one. The inner door pulls are mounted to the plastic inner door panel, not to any metal structure. So it seems like it is designed to try and pull the inner door panel off when closing the door. How can FF, with all their resources and intelligence, design something like this?

I recall the build manual said to bolt the inside door lever to the metal frame of the door, but it didn't line up with the metal frame. It was easy enough to weld a tab to the door frame to bolt on to, but one must have the ability to weld. A bolt on tab is also possible. But, this is something FFR should fix. It would be nearly effortless for FFR to add the tab to the door frame. Or provide a bolt on tab. See post #8 above.

[FFRWRX]

I was referring to the aluminum strip with the holes in it that looks like it was cut with a torch. It attaches to the plastic door panel.

[lance corsi]

I was referring to the aluminum strip with the holes in it that looks like it was cut with a torch. It attaches to the plastic door panel.

Are you sure they don’t use a hatchet to cut them out?

[RPGs818SNA]

Lance, thanks for bringing up the headlight rotation issue. I have a 2019 kit and am just now trying to fit the headlights into the buckets. I already moved each of the socket holes from .03” to .10” to get them located directly under the screws with ball ends. That took some whittling on that plastic adapter behind the bucket. Now I have to worry about rotation? Has anyone else with a 2019 or later kit run into this? Are your lower mounting screws level with the ground once installed? It seems like they need to be for a proper headlight alignment, and to get that Hella logo level.

[carnutdave]

RPGs818SNA, my kit is from 2018 and I had to Dremel out the ball end sockets in the housing too because only 2 out of 3 sockets lined up. I asked FFR about it and they just said to tweak it. I was surprised it was off in the first place. I didn't notice the Hella logo being too far off. Here are some photos of them installed.
20211214_130753_resized.jpg
20211214_130741_resized.jpg

[RPGs818SNA]

Thanks for the great photos, CarNutDave. They show the passenger side lens is 3.6 degrees clockwise and the driver side 7.5 counterclockwise. Your camera angle would affect this, but it looks like you lined up the photos very nicely with the garage door panels. Have you noticed anything while driving at night?
Headlight rotation.jpg

I don’t know how much rotation would cause a problem. Hella says:
"The cut-off line must run as horizontally as possible along the dividing line over the whole width of the screen (the left half of the width for our asymmetric lights). Correct the headlamp adjustment if necessary using adjusting screws."
Since there are no adjusting screws to rotate the light to make the cutoff run horizontally, perhaps it’s not a big issue.

I think I’ll wait to mount the headlights in the buckets until after I’ve located the fenders so I can fix any rotation.

I’m a little surprised at FFR’s response to the ball/socket alignment issue, but I guess I shouldn’t be after having to tweak the frame, aluminum panels, coolant tubes, etc. I guess it’s part of the experience.

[ben1272]

RPGs818SNA, my kit is from 2018 and I had to Dremel out the ball end sockets in the housing too because only 2 out of 3 sockets lined up. I asked FFR about it and they just said to tweak it. I was surprised it was off in the first place. I didn't notice the Hella logo being too far off. Here are some photos of them installed.
20211214_130753_resized.jpg
20211214_130741_resized.jpg

I like the black trim on your headlight lenses. Would you explain what you did?

[aquillen]

"gen 2 body" - I changed the mounting scheme a bit by adding an aluminum plate for the "clocking" ability - also made the whole mount seem a bit more solid...

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...730#post408730

Bonding the clear lenses without screws or painting/taping over the bonding perimeter:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...960#post424960

Seal foam for the bucket to body and the Hella to the buckets:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...138#post475138

[RPGs818SNA]

Thanks Art. That's an awesome solution to the clocking problem, the hole alignment problem, and the rigidity problem. Not knowing how much rotation I'll need, I may slot the small mounting holes in the bracket. Maybe FFR could provide such a bracket for future kits.

[carnutdave]

I like the black trim on your headlight lenses. Would you explain what you did?

I put masking tape on both the front and back of the lens then cut a ~3/4" border on the front of the lens only and painted using gloss black paint. Since I just used spray can paint, the finish isn't perfect and I may redo them later but I think they're ok enough to get the car on the road. I used 3M VHB tape to adhere them to the body.

20210927_204342_resized.jpg
20211107_165442_resized.jpg

[carnutdave]

Thanks for the great photos, CarNutDave. They show the passenger side lens is 3.6 degrees clockwise and the driver side 7.5 counterclockwise. Your camera angle would affect this, but it looks like you lined up the photos very nicely with the garage door panels. Have you noticed anything while driving at night?
Headlight rotation.jpg

I don’t know how much rotation would cause a problem. Hella says:
"The cut-off line must run as horizontally as possible along the dividing line over the whole width of the screen (the left half of the width for our asymmetric lights). Correct the headlamp adjustment if necessary using adjusting screws."
Since there are no adjusting screws to rotate the light to make the cutoff run horizontally, perhaps it’s not a big issue.

I think I’ll wait to mount the headlights in the buckets until after I’ve located the fenders so I can fix any rotation.

I’m a little surprised at FFR’s response to the ball/socket alignment issue, but I guess I shouldn’t be after having to tweak the frame, aluminum panels, coolant tubes, etc. I guess it’s part of the experience.

I'm only just getting the car on the road so I haven't gotten a chance to adjust the headlights at all or drive at night. Once I get a chance, I'll let you know what I find out. The angle is small at the lens but may have an exaggerated effect on the spread out beam pattern.

[prematureapex]

I think one of the biggest things would be the transmission leveling. Its really something that needs addressed just from a mechanical issue stance. some of the other things are comfort but not crucial for operation as a vehicle. I certainly think that A2W should be standard or a solution for the lack luster A2A performance especially in coupe models. I also wished that they offered A/c much like they do with the GTM as an option instead of those of us that have retro fit a kit. windows ALWAYS plague kit cars. Some companies choose to just go with immoveable lexan or glass so from that aspect i'm grateful that they at least tried to have quality glass and window mechanisms. I feel that they could be improved a ton but it would take a lot more hours then I feel FF would dedicate to something like that. (hindsight I wish i didn't even cut for windows in my coupe). This being a low cost Kit surely shows and leaves a lot of room for improvement but if they refined it as much as anyone would like, I'm sure the cost would rise quite a bit which would really eliminate it from a lot of considerations.

Isn't heat soak worse on the S vs. the C? Have only had the car out at a cold track day, so it wasn't an issue (coupe here).

That being said, can anyone comment on the heat soak with the coupe while moving (always going to be an issue idling in traffic, I understand).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Isn't heat soak worse on the S vs. the C? Have only had the car out at a cold track day, so it wasn't an issue (coupe here).
That being said, can anyone comment on the heat soak with the coupe while moving (always going to be an issue idling in traffic, I understand).

These are my opinions on 818 intercoolers.
1. For track usage, it is difficult to get enough airflow to the top-mounted Intercooler on an 818S, 818C or 818R.

2. A AWIC system seems to work well on 818S, 818C, and 818R. This is what I have on my 818S.

3. FFR was successful with a Front mount intercooler. (long air pipes) on an 818R.

4. I don't know if I agree that there is a heat soak at idle. The compressor isn't generating much heat at idle. It is important on the 818 to purposely force a lot of air through the engine bay to keep everything cool. My AWIC system has about 10 lbs of aluminum and 12 lbs of coolant in it. With that large thermal mass, I believe my intake temperatures are low and steady. I'll admit that I haven't data logged that temperature.

Below is the temperature of a 30-minute track session. The line that says intake temperature is at the MAF sensor, before the turbo.

29.jpg

[J R Jones]

Isn't heat soak worse on the S vs. the C? Have only had the car out at a cold track day, so it wasn't an issue (coupe here).

That being said, can anyone comment on the heat soak with the coupe while moving (always going to be an issue idling in traffic, I understand).

I came to a completely different conclusion than Bob did. I assumed you were questioning heat in the interior.

The term "heat soak" is not associated with interior comfort and not in the dynamics of engine operation.
An example of heat soak is the engine temperature rise when the engine is shut off at any temperature above ambient. The hot engine is not cooled by recirculating coolant, and the hotter than coolant mass "heat soaks" to a higher than operating temperature as measured by the coolant gauge or any other means.

The AWIC itself does not heat soak, engine off; the coolant probably does.

The firewall will be a source of heat in either coupe or roadster, especially on one's backside. The roadster will be cooler on top with infinite airflow.
jim

[lance corsi]

As far as heat soak relative to intercoolers, the capacity to absorb heat is largely dependent upon the amount of ballast coolant and time spent at boost condition. I have an awic with a 3 gallon reservoir and an independently controlled water pump. I can run my pump for a prolonged period following a boost event which helps to manage heat soak. Same goes for my engine coolant pump. I can run my pump for an extended period after engine shutdown.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

As far as heat soak relative to intercoolers, the capacity to absorb heat is largely dependent upon the amount of ballast coolant and time spent at boost condition. I have an awic with a 3 gallon reservoir and an independently controlled water pump. I can run my pump for a prolonged period following a boost event which helps to manage heat soak. Same goes for my engine coolant pump. I can run my pump for an extended period after engine shutdown.

Hi Lance, I run my intercooler pump off my fuel pump relay. So it's on whenever ECU sees that the engine is running. On track days, my radiator fans stays off until the end of the session when I am traveling at 5 MPH in the paddock fter the session.


Hi Jim, Here is an articale on subaru EJ heat soak https://www.iwsti.com/threads/combat...t-soak.273577/

Bob

[J R Jones]

Bob, Interesting, the ICE industries have used the term for 120 years in the traditional sense. An example:
https://www.agriculture.com/machiner...fe_567-ar45026
(Ray Bohacz His how-to articles also appear in Diesel Power, Engine Professional, Hemmings Motor News, and Speedway Illustrated magazines. Contact Bohacz via email at [email protected].)

It appears that the aftermarket "boost" industry has adopted the term as a loose interpretation. joejoe89 may be a blogger, likely not an automotive engineer.
After reading your link, I suggest heat transfer/adsorption is a more practical description. He who invents the jargon makes the rules?

In a former life I was tasked with determining why fuel was boiling (100-400F) in Harley Davidson Tour Glides after operation. A high risk circumstance especially if smoking and refueling.
It was radiant heat from the air-cooled engine compounded by lack of air flow and energy from sunlight. Black and red tanks are the worst in that regard.
Heat soak was the engine, heat adsorption was the tank.

As you and Lance have determined, post-operation coolant circulation is effective to counteract cooled component heat soak. Insulation is a static remedy for intersystem system heat transfer.
jim