New Wisconsin Build Thread

[pstockha]

Hi all. So I'm not building yet. My MkIV roadster complete kit is on order and should be here in a couple weeks. For now, I've been busy picking up the last few tools I need, planning the final details, and preparing my shop. Over the long weekend I finished re-configuring my shop for the build (for the last year it's been mostly a woodworking shop as I built some furniture for my wife (sewing table) and daughter (doll clothes armoire)). I figured I'd get my thread going, however, and post a couple pictures of my newly cleaned and re-configured shop, all ready for the build. I'll keep posting as I finish my body buck and frame dolly, and then build updates when the kit arrives.

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[KDubU]

I think your shop is big enough! Very nice and will come in handy.

[Mister7]

Hi all. So I'm not building yet. My MkIV roadster complete kit is on order and should be here in a couple weeks. For now, I've been busy picking up the last few tools I need, planning the final details, and preparing my shop. Over the long weekend I finished re-configuring my shop for the build (for the last year it's been mostly a woodworking shop as I built some furniture for my wife (sewing table) and daughter (doll clothes armoire)). I figured I'd get my thread going, however, and post a couple pictures of my newly cleaned and re-configured shop, all ready for the build. I'll keep posting as I finish my body buck and frame dolly, and then build updates when the kit arrives.

Shop 1_proc.jpgShop 2_proc.jpg

Nice work area!!

I'm building a roadster up in Green Bay. Just mounted the body and in the process of fitting doors. When is your kit estimated to arrive?

Tom

[pstockha]

Thanks! My completion date was last Saturday, so I'm hoping to have the kit sometime in the next week or two. I'm finishing up my frame dolly and body buck this week. I'd love to come up and see what you're doing sometime. Email or PM for direct contact. Paul

[pstockha]

Step one as I wait for delivery: the frame dolly.
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[mrmrules]

Nice looking shop we look forward to seeing the build!

[pstockha]

Took delivery of my kit this weekend. Jim from Stewart was friendly and helpful. Now I can really see the task before me.

The loaded truck.
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My proud moment:
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Back in the shop on the dolly (and pleased to see I didn't get the dimensions wrong on that):
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[KDubU]

Congrats! Now the fun truly begins.

Is that your plane in your avatar? That I like.

[pstockha]

Thanks much. That's my plane. A Waco YMF-5C. Come to Wisconsin, I'll give you a ride.

[KDubU]

Would love to take you up on that offer! I'm up to Mnpls multiple times a year but it is a bit of a drive over your way. Love the old birds though. My fav is the spitfire.

[Courtnie Provencher]

Congratulations on your new kit, and best of luck with the build.
Let us know if you need anything at all!
I can't wait to watch your build transform into a complete car

-Courtnie FFR Tech Support

[David Hodgkins]

Tom,

Outstanding shop! I look forward to watching your build. I have a ton of build pics in my Anniversary build album and build thread that may be of some help to you.

Congratulations, and have FUN!

[Bhhughes]

I have to admire all of the room you have to work. Have you decided upon the details of your build - engine, transmission, etc?

[pstockha]

I'm still working out the last details of my build, but here's what I have so far:

MkIV Complete Kit
-Powdercoat Chassis
-Big/Tall Leather seats
-IRS - 2015 Mustang takeoff parts
-Vintage FFR gauge set
-17" Halibrand replica wheels
-SS side exhaust
-Chrome rollbar PS only, w/ grommets
-windwings
-center dash support
-Wilwood brake kits front and rear

Engine
427 cu. in. - stroked Dart SBF 351W block, thinking carburetor rather than EFI

Trans
TKO600

Manual steering, manual brakes with the Wilwood upgrades

Clutch - just not sure yet

[pstockha]

I've had my kit for about two weeks now, but haven't done much of anything other than the inventory because many of the key early-needed parts remain backordered.

Here is my finished body-buck. I have the room that I don't need to store it over the frame, so I designed a simple rolling frame to keep it low and make it easy to move around the shop.

IMG_0183 Body Buck 1.JPGIMG_0184 Body Buck 2.JPG

And here's the extent of my progress so far: body on buck, inventory complete, frame on its dolly and ready to start.

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This weekend I'll be getting all the aluminum panels marked and removed.

Also sending out all the bare metal parts for finishing.

[pstockha]

I didn't realize a day or two before delivery that I'd made an error in the construction of my frame dolly, so I scrapped the first one and made this new one.


IMG_0153 frame dolly.JPG

So far so good - it fit the frame perfectly and seems to be holding up the frame with no problems. Moving it around the shop is a breeze.

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It is 60" side to side in the top pic (front to pack as it holds the frame). I used all 2x6s. The rear is 36" wide, the front is 28". The supports are built up of full width 2x6s sandwiching the 60" member. On top of that I have 3 11" pieces laminated on each side to support the frame and 2 6.5" pieces stacked to the inside to create the block inside the 4" frame tubes to hold the frame securely against lateral movement. I then glued carpet scraps to protect the frame tubes. The wheels are 8" poly, each with a 900 lb load rating. In the end it gives me 18.5" height at the bottom of the 4" frame tubes. Happy to send more detailed design drawings and links to the wheels I used if anyone likes the design and is interested.

[pstockha]

​While waiting for some other parts I picked up tires and had them mounted and balanced. They look pretty sweet:

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The wheels are the 17" Halibrand replicas from FFR.
Tires are Nitto NT01 315/35R17 Rear // 255/40R17 Front

Got the tires from Discount Tire Direct. Very pleased with them as a vendor.

[pstockha]

Dipping my toe into the build while I'm still waiting for some parts.

Got the F panels done. Already very much in learning as I go mode.

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For other completely novice builders like myself, a few things I encountered:

1. Acetone really does work great for getting the markings off. Just a tiny bit on a shop rag wipes them clean. Although I did notice that the shadow of some of the longer term marking remains - likely just the differential exposure of the aluminum over time.

2. I found it much easier to just mark and drill right on the frame rather than the procedure in the manual. I tried the remove, then drill, then reattach to frame and drill through the holes in the aluminum as stated in the manual for the first panel. For the second I just used clecos to secure the panel to the frame, marked the drill spots while attached and drilled all without removing from the frame. This worked much easier and allowed me to be more accurate since the F panels didn't line up with the frame tubes perfectly based on the initial positioning. I wasn't brave enough to adjust the position from the initial two screw holes in the frame, so I went with those and adjusted my rivet spacing from the edges as appropriate based on that positioning.

3. I've chosen not to treat the aluminium prior to installation. Initially I had myself wound up with many of the recommendations regarding shark skin or powder coating. For my first build with my complete lack of experience I've decided to keep it as simple as possible. So I'm going to install the panels as-is and evaluate once the aluminum is on whether and where I want to do additional coatings.

I did my riveting with a pneumatic pop riveter. This unit is an Astro Pneumatic PR14 riveter. It comes with interchangeable heads for 1/4", 3/16", 5/32", 1/8", and 3/32" So far I couldn't be happier with it. Makes the riveting a breeze.

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[pstockha]

I began installation of the front suspension over the weekend. Got the lower control arms on (though the bolts aren't torqued yet in the pics below).

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Again, I encountered a few issues likely resulting from my near-complete lack of expertise and experience.

1. The manual notes that the rear mounts are wider and you need to fill the space with the supplied washers. There are two washers per side provided. I found that I only could use one. The rubber bushings on the lower control arms are slightly narrower than the (what looks like) bronze bushings/spacers around the bolts. I could fit a single washer between the mounts and the bronze bushings. I simply couldn't get another washer in, even though the was still a little space between the mounts and the rubber bushings. The bronze sleeves stick out from the rubber bushings just a bit and fill that space. I figure that this will firm up with torquing the bolts properly. And most of the build pictures I found appeared to only use one washer as well.

2. On the left side, the front mountings must have been just slightly bent because I could not fit the lower control arm between the mounts. The bronze bushing overlapped the mount by about 3/32". My solution was to use a brake pad spreader to gently spread the mount plates to let me slight the lower control arm into the space. Could've just hit it with a dead blow hammer but there isn't really room to swing without risking hitting the frame elsewhere and I figured this was a more precise way of going about it.

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[Gene]

I love the plane. My wife and I take our 35 Ford from Southern California back to Wisconsin every year to visit family and friends and go to EAA in Oshkosh.
My kit will be completed and ready for Stewart transportation to pick up this Saturday. I have built the body buck and am about to start on the chassis dolly. Do you have dimensions on your dolly? What was the difference between the first and second dolly?

[pstockha]

Hey Gene, thanks. I go to Oshkosh every year too - great gathering.

Congrats on your kit!

The dimensions for my final dolly are in the post above. Basically 60" front to back (of the frame), 36" wide at the rear, 28" wide at the front. (In the picture above the front is to the left). I built it such that before gluing on the carpet pieces, the raised blocks that sit inside the 4" tubes are 19.25" wide. The 4" frame tubes are 22" on center, so have 20" width inside of them. After gluing the carpet, my width is right about 19.75" so it's a nice snug fit allowing the frame no lateral play at all.

My cut list (all from 2x6 lumber) was:

1x 60" (front to back member)
2x 36" (for the rear base)
2x 28" (for the front base)
2x 11.5" (for the rear 36" sandwich around the full length front to back member)
2x 6.75" (for the front 28" sandwich around the full length front to back member)
12x 11" (for the 4 stacks creating the bottom support for the 4" tubes)
8x 6.5" (for the 4 stacks creating the lateral block for the 4" tubes)


The change from the first to the second was that for the original I made the support stacks only 24" wide, so that the 4" tubes would have only barely been held and might have had enough side-to-side play to perhaps slide off sideways. It probably would have been ok, but I wanted it perfect so I started over. I also added a second block to the inside stacks - belt and suspenders, probably not really necessary.

Hopefully this gives you what you need. If not, let me know.

[Gene]

Great. Thanks a lot.
I managed to get it about half built today. I would have completed it but I had to spend three hours in LA traffic picking up the heavy duty casters.
So far it looks good.
Thanks again.

[wbi310r]

Is there something about Factory Five and Pilots? Jake or Continental. Never flown a WACO, just a Stearman. Dad says they flew great, I assume yours is a recently manufactured one?

Brad

[pstockha]

Jake. And yes, it is one of the YMF's built recently in Battle Creek. I love Stearmans as well. So much fun.

[GoDadGo]

Welcome Aboard!

You're going to have a blast building your roadster.
If you get frustrated or stuck, the folks on this Forum and the gang at Factory Five Racing are amazing.
Remember that every journey begins with the first step and I know you've made many so this is going to be easier that you ever thought.

Steve aka: GoDadGo

PS: I just love the workshop and of course the WACO!
How Cool!

[carlewms]

Congratulations on starting the wild ride ... you are going to love (well at least most of the time) and there are going to be those brief moments where you want to beat it into submission with a 20# sledge hammer...

I am not sure what modifications your considering but I would get a list together because depending not the mod sequencing is important.

For instance after sitting in the PS of a car without the PS footbox installed (and being very uncomfortable I expanded the foot box. which getting the body on the car is impossible to do...without taking it bak off

After just go karting a couple of weeks ago ,, I would very strongly consider power steering and the hydraulic clutch actuation... I installed the Breeze power steering rack and go his fittings and hydraulic lines. I installed Fortes hydraulic clutch kit.

BTW since we all fell victim to the "read it on the forum and add it to the cost" disease on these build we are obligated to do so with those staring after us ...Ha Ha.

Congratulations ...

Carl

[6t8dart]

Me too, licenced Private/Instrument pilot here. I have not flown since 2001, I hope to get back in a plane sometime in the future. I stayed in the aviation field since college, just not behind a stick.

[pstockha]

So I faced a long hiatus in my work on the car (and my posting here) as a result of a pretty severe back injury that kept me away from the shop for several months. On the upside, while I was on injured reserve, pretty much all my other parts arrived, so there's no more waiting and I can dive right in. I've been back at it for a few weeks now and it's time to catch up on my build thread posting.

The rest of the front suspension and front brakes went on quite easily. Nothing special to report

One thing I was surprised about was how easily the center section went in. I'm doing the 2015 IRS and there has been much posted about the difficulty of getting the center section in. I was all prepared to grind down some bolts as guides and do battle, but the fight never emerged.

Here's what I did. I sat at the back of the car with the center section between my legs. I lifted it up close to in position and braced it on my knees. I had placed the bolts and a dead blow mallet at my right hand when I sat down. I levered the center section into place, again bracing the weight with my knees, grabbed the bolts, jammed them in as far as I could; grabbed the hammer and pounded them through. It took just moments and the center section was in. I'll call myself lucky rather than good on this one, but it was a relief to have it go so well.

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Putting in the rear suspension the one major hurdle I ran into was that on the DS upper control arm, the frame weld next to the font bolt hole was large enough that there was not enough flat space around the hole to secure a nut.

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I ground down the weld just a bit to make some space, and FFR sent me out a replacement nut ground flat on one side.

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That went on slick and the rest of the rear suspension and brakes was pretty much a breeze as well.

[pstockha]

Getting the correct wheel studs into the hubs for the IRS was a bit of a battle. I was well advised by forum members to go out and buy some sacrificial flat lug nuts and use them (along with some grease) to pull the studs into the hubs. Worked great.

Some pics of my work product on the rear suspension in case they provide any following builder a good reference (or an example of what not to do):


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The wilwood brake kit is a great setup. The instructions are clear and they went on easily according to the instructions:

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After all four corners of the suspension and brakes were on, I put my 17" Halibrand wheels on. I justified this by saying to myself that I wanted to check clearance and brake line routing, but really it was because it looked so cool and gave me a sense of accomplishment to see them on the frame.

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The clearance of those big wilwood brakes is nicely tight. They fill the space, but there's just enough room.

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I ran the brake line routing for the rears the same way shown in EdwardB's 20th anniversary build thread (and let me say thank you once again for that amazing reference without which I don't think I could do this).

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And that's it for now. Starting on the aluminum and the pedal box. I'll try to keep my updates more regular.

[Jazzman]

After all four corners of the suspension and brakes were on, I put my 17" Halibrand wheels on. I justified this by saying to myself that I wanted to check clearance and brake line routing, but really it was because it looked so cool and gave me a sense of accomplishment to see them on the frame.

Don't worry, we have all done it! It is a good feeling. I am sorry to hear about your injury, but pleased that you are on the mend. Great to see you back in the shop. I hope the build progresses smoothly for you.

[rmiller64]

Nice work Paul Glad to hear your back on the mend and getting to work on the build again. With all that room and could spend your money for you I'd install a Bend Pak HD-9 It has been a back saver for me on my build and allows to double park the toys
.
I'm a taildragger driver also mostly C-180 Skywagon

Look forward to following your build

[pstockha]

Yeah, that Bend Pak is always in the back of my mind. Haven't pulled the trigger yet. But we'll see.

[pstockha]

I ran into difficulty this weekend fitting up the Wilwood pedal box. Others have well documented the problem with clutch pedal interference with the frame member so I went into this process planning to have to perform either the pedal modification or the cut-out approach. But in the end I ran into a somewhat different problem. After assembling the pedal box, I put it on the frame as instructed and ran the 4 bolts through from the front of the DS font aluminum piece. With those bolts in place holding the pedal box tight and square against the steel plate at the front of the DS footbox, the rear support bracket for the pedal box is nowhere close to centered on the two frame tubes where you're supposed to drill the holes (see pics below):

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On of the bracket feet sits right on the edge of the tube such that drilling the hole would drill right down the side of the tube. The other actually is so off center that the hole in the bracket foot overlaps the edge of the tube (you can see the half circle of light in the right pic above.

Notably, it appears that the pedal box truly is in the wrong position (rather than the problem being an incorrectly cut or bent bracket) because the clutch pedal interference is much worse that that generally reported on the forum. Even with the typical grinding out of a portion of the clutch pedal I cannot solve the interference with the pedal box in the position illustrated above. I tried moving the pedal box around and found that if I move the whole pedal box over sideways about 3/16" it not only settles the bracket feet more or less in the center of the tubes (solving the problem shown in the pics above) but it also mitigates the clutch pedal interference such that it can be solved just by grinding out the typical portion of the pedal (although the interference is still there - will need to do the expected work around by grinding the pedal).

I could accomplish this by re-drilling the holes in the front piece of the pedal box support bracket. The pic below shows sharpie marks (black on black, more or less visible) where I'd have to drill the revised holes in the bracket to secure the pedal box where it needs to be to solve these problems. I'm concerned, however, that the resulting figure-8 shaped holes would be detrimental to successfully securing the pedal box in position.

IMG_0518_proc.jpg

Has anyone had this problem before? Is there a better solution? Does my proposed solution sound crazy? I can't leave the pedal box where it is with the pre-drilled hole pattern so I need to make some change.

[edwardb]

A certain amount of "adjustment" is necessary during the build, and this could be one of them. Not sure why, but variability does happen. I haven't run into this particular one. Maybe some others have experienced it or have some ideas. But one caution. The steering column cuts through the pedal area and actually ends up pretty close to the inside of the brake pedal arm. That would be another sanity check for your current situation plus any adjustments you might think about making. I would keep an eye on that if I were you. That's one of the lessons learned for these builds. For me anyway. Sometimes things have unexpected consequences, so always a good idea to keep looking ahead several steps.

[6t8dart]

It's possible that there was a quality escape on your chassis, it could be the holes were cut off, or the bracket was welded a bit off. I remember someone else having an issue with their front x-brace not welded. I think your issue is serious enough that FFR needs to do something about it.

[Jazzman]

I had similar issues to what you are showing. I had to enlarge slightly the mounting holes you show, but no where near that much. 6T8Dart is correct. Talk to FFR. Before you do, you might want to take it out again and make sure that what you are doing matches the FFR description and photos. I mean no disrespect to your skills. I just know that occasionally a gremlin seems to switch things around on me just to see if I am paying attention. It is possible one of my gremlin's relatives lives in your neck of the woods!!

[pstockha]

My skills require no respect. I always start my analysis of each problem I encounter in the build with the assumption that I've done something wrong or missed an instruction. Frequently that's been correct. That said, I took it out and back in and adjusted multiple times and every which way before posting here so I'm at least pretty sure that I've eliminated the possibility that I'm just assembling this bit incorrectly. Thanks for the input. I'll chat with FFR this week and see what comes of it before I start re-drilling the holes in the bracket.

[pstockha]

I checked with FFR this morning. They confirm that the correct approach is to reposition the pedal box assembly and re-drill the holes in the support bracket to line it up correctly. That will be my next task. I'll update here again once it's done.

[pstockha]

My re-drilling of the front pedal box bracket holes is complete. Turned out to be much more difficult than I anticipated. Even with a drill press and a vise, I couldn't get the bit to stay aligned; it kept skipping into the already-drilled holes. I ended up using a rotary file to grind out the enlarged areas for the holes. Not pretty, but it got the job done after some clean up.

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I went on to get the pedal box assembly in place. With the new hole locations in the front bracket, it went on easily and (with the clutch pedal ground out for the known interference issue) everything looks good and there is no more interference.

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I didn't get much further before running into my next snag however. I installed the master cylinders per the directions. I have the big Wilwood brake upgrade kit, so one of the master cylinders is 3/4" while the other is the standard 5/8". I wasn't sure if it mattered which one went inside and which outside and I couldn't find any direction on the matter, so I put the 3/4" in the center position. I noticed on installation that while the 5/8" MC has a clip around the end of the boot on the pushrod, the 3/4" MC does not. Not sure if that matters, but that's how they cam from FFR.

IMG_0561_proc.jpg

I noticed what I'm concerned might be a problem when I depressed the brake pedal to test the motion and the attachments. As I push the pedal in, the 5/8" MC starts to depress first. It gets maybe halfway in before the 3/4" MC stars to move. So the movement of the two pushrods is staggered. The same happens when I release the pedal. The 5/8" MC's pushrod moves out first, followed later by the 3/4" MC. Is this a natural consequence of having two different sized MC's that will correct itself once the lines are connected and they are fluid filled, or should I be seeing them depress at the same rate even now? Anyone have any insights on this? Particularly anyone who's used the different sized MC from Wilwood?

I'm going to work on posting a You Tube video of the motion to illustrate what I'm talking about but hopefully the description is sufficiently specific.

Thanks,
Paul

[edwardb]

For the brake function, doesn't matter which position the 3/4-inch (front) and 5/8-inch (rear) MC's are located. In my experience, put them in the best location for your intended brake line routing. On my build, I ended up with the rear on the inside and the front in the center, like yours. I wouldn't worry too much yet about how they actuate. I would recommend you check that the balance bar is centered. Out of the box, mine was quite a bit off center. It may work a little differently if this adjustment is necessary. But then wait until you have fluid and they're bled and you should see both sides move the same. Strange that clip is missing. I don't think it's a big deal though. You could pull a tie wrap around there if you wanted.