True cost of getting a Coyote set up and running in a MK4?

[charlesshoults]

I've read a number of build logs, using the Coyote engine in the Roadsters and I've seen people ask questions about pros/cons, whether it's better to go with a Coyote or a SBF. (I wouldn't even consider a non-Ford engine. In my opinion, a vehicle that was historically Ford powered should stay that way). So on my parts list below, how far off am I? Are any of these parts unnecessary? From the engine to the input shaft of the transmission, am I missing anything? It's entirely possible that some of these parts can be found for less money, depending on how much hunting is done. No, the GP headers aren't strictly necessary but I think they're better than the headers that come from Factory Five and would likely use them regardless of which engine I select.

Description	Part Number	Vendor	Unit Price
5.0L Coyote 435HP Crate Engine	M-6007-M50A	Don Woods Parts	$6625.00
Moroso Oil Pan	20570	Summit Racing	$405.97
Moroso Oil Pickup	24570	Summit Racing	$104.97
GP Stainless Steel Double Collector Headers		GP Headers	$1300.00
Ford Performance Gen II Wiring Harness	M-6007-504V	Don Woods Parts	$1448.39
Ford Performance BOSS 302 Alternator Kit	M-8600-M50BALT	Tasca Parts Center	$225.50
Ford Performance Starter	M-11000-C50	Buy Ford Performance	$229.99
Roadster Coyote Installation Kit	15432	Factory Five	$350.00
Quicktime Bellhousing	RM-6080	Summit Racing	$659.95
Ford Performance Billet Steel Flywheel	M-6375-M50	Summit Racing	$289.97
Ford Performance Clutch	M-7560-T46	Summit Racing	$449.97
			$12,089.71

[q4stix]

That's a pretty accurate list of parts and prices if you were to buy all the parts on any given day without looking, or waiting, for sales or used parts (engine, starter, etc.)

[grluisi150]

Some other things to consider:
bolts for clutch and flywheel,
throw-out bearing,
clutch fork,
thrush bearing,
air intake,
fuel pump and regulator.
engine cover

Gary

[bansheekev]

Add in:

- Radiator overflow tank / additional hoses
- Header bolts
- SCT or other programmer + custom tune / off the shelf tune (if you decide to go that route)

Kevin

[edwardb]

Not that I'm one to talk, but there is money to be saved with a Ford aluminum bell housing vs. the Quicktime bell. Also the nodular flywheel that comes with the engine is completely usable and most do.

You'll also need some intake pieces. The Factory Five instructions show what's required. Couple hundred bucks there as I recall. Other than that, the list has the major items. There are additional items as others have listed.

But my main observation is that if you're comparing the cost of a Coyote to other engine options, the things to compare would be the cost of the Coyote specific parts, like the engine, controls pack, installation kit, etc. Like you mentioned for the headers which would be required for any engine choice, same would be true for the bell housing, clutch, alternator, starter, low profile oil pan, and most of the other parts cited in other responses.

There are tons of options for engine choices, new, donor, salvage, build your own, etc. But if a new crate motor is in the build plan, you'll have a hard time finding 435 hp with EFI, 4-bolt forged crank, aluminum block, etc., all with a 2-year warranty like the Coyote. I dug pretty deep into this analaysis before my current build. I was initially planning to do a more traditional engine. But the Coyote was the best value by quite a bit. Again, if you truly compare apples to apples.

[Duke]

Pad that budget with about another 1K and you should be good.

[charlesshoults]

I'm focusing primarily on items that would be different between a Coyote and a small block Ford. Nuts and bolts are needed for every installation, as are cooling systems. Even with my aversions, I'm leaning toward an electric assist steering system to eliminate the pump, pulley and fluid lines. If I can identify an alternator that would be common between the Coyote and the SBF as I wouldn't consider that a Coyote specific part so I could eliminate it from my list. Same goes for the starter, but I think the two engine types use flywheels with a different tooth count. Either setup would use a chassis wiring harness so that wouldn't be unique either. I spend all of my days with computers as a system engineer and part of me thinks that computers cause more problems than they solve. That can be taken from a business, social or political perspective. Like anything, if you take care of it, maintain it regularly and address any issues you find, cars should last a lifetime, especially cars like these, where they're typically not going to be driven hundreds of thousands of miles. I'm not fond of the drive by wire throttle and I'm less fond of plastic switches. With the Coyote, is there any alternative to the electronic throttle setup? I'm fine wth using computerized systems to supplement normal mechanical operation but I don't think that systems should be built where electronics are the sole controlling interface. I'm just 40 years old but I think I was born about 30 years too late.

[wareaglescott]

Your last post sounds to me like you just made a great case why you should not use a Coyote. Build it old school if that suits your desires.

[edwardb]

With the Coyote, is there any alternative to the electronic throttle setup? I'm fine with using computerized systems to supplement normal mechanical operation but I don't think that systems should be built where electronics are the sole controlling interface.

Short answer, no. It's kind of nice not having to mess around with a throttle cable or linkage, but that's a bit off topic. Longer answer, the Coyote engine is like most modern engines and simply will not run without the computer (PCM) controlling nearly every aspect. Including fuel, ignition, valve timing on all four cams, throttle body position, mixture, etc. Without the computer, the program it operates, a whole gaggle of sensors providing feedback, and active controls responding to the feedback, it's not going anywhere. It's how they make power, driveability, economy, and emissions control all at levels that were impossible before.

Your last post sounds to me like you just made a great case why you should not use a Coyote. Build it old school if that suits your desires.

Agreed.

[Dave Howard]

Budget for a tune on your Coyote. The stock program assumes the crate Coyote is using the air box that comes control pack, and assumes your exhaust is the stock Coyote factory header and Mustang system. A custom tune on a dyno is worth every penny.

My experience with the Coyote is all good.
- 490 HP - Mustang Dino
- Great fuel economy while touring. 5 hours on a stock Mustang tank.
- Smooth responsive operation through entire range of RPM.
- Operates very well on 87 octane pump gas. No need for expensive 94.
- No difference is operation between sea level and 4000m.
- Super strong 4bolt bottom end. Bullet proof and reliable.

[CraigS]

While I have a SBF in mine and wouldn't want a Coyote, I will add that electronics are one of the only reasons we still have gas engines in our cars. I spent 20 yrs as Lexus tech and went to school at least once per year. The advances are incredible. One year they pointed out that there was no longer a seperate egr (exhaust gas recirculation) system on the new engine. Why? W/ computers controlling both cams, they just crank in a bunch of overlap to get the egr. Their initial drive by wire throttle was electric w/ mechanical backup and next they went full electric. Guess what, that eliminated the mechanical cruise control linkage and the second throttle body blade that they used to use to reduce engine power when the traction control and/or stability control system needed less power. Remember distributers and plug wires and dist caps? All gone when an ecu can control individual coils. Now this one I didn't believe the first time I was told it but when the 3rd Lexus instructor said it was true I have to think it is. How does the ecu know when there is an engine misfire? Think about an 8 cylinder engine running. We figure the rotation is smooth right? Not true. The crank actually accelerates a little each time a cylinder fires and slows a little in between. If the speed sensor doesn't see one of these accelerations, it knows a cylinder didn't fire. Look at compression ratios in modern engines. Most all are in the 11s and some in the low 12s. On pump gas. Only possible w/ sophisticated ecus and sensors. These are just a few instances to show how electronics have changed gas engines tremendously for the better.

[Misterfubar]

I just ordered my Coyote and the last of the parts I needed from Summit yesterday. Call them and they will price match or beat every one of those prices you have listed.

I used this company for the price on the engine and got it for a little bit cheaper than the Don Woods price. http://www.fordracingbyspeedshopdire...-6007-m50a.htm I think Don Woods was cheaper on everything else.

If you go the Coyote route, search out the best price on everything and have them pulled up in your browser and give Summit a call. The phone call took me about 10 minutes and saved me almost $800 off of the price of the parts that were already in my cart.

I had a tracking number for all the items except the engine about 2 hours after I got off the phone and they'll be here tomorrow. The engine is already on a truck and will be here but Tuesday.

[Al_C]

Charles, Just my 2 cents. I elected to go with the Coyote because I wanted new technology. That, and the fact that 400 HP was going to cost roughly the same if I went old school or new. Why do I say this? Not that it's any of my business, but I'm wondering why you're asking the question. If it's strictly a financial decision, you can arguably make a case either way. Lots of people find inexpensive ways to install a SBF, but lots of people spend way more than a Coyote, too. WareagleScott and EdwardB believe you may actually want a SBF. So all I can suggest is that you understand what's driving your decision and go with it. It's good to analyze this in detail, but in the end you should go with your gut.

[DaleG]

You might want to call Mike Forte and give him your "Coyote needs list" and see what he can do price-wise for the whole list. I had a very good response from him back in 2013 for all my Coyote components.

[toadster]

Gen3 Crate Motor is a bit more, but I think worth it!

5.0L 460HP Mustang Crate Engine Gen 3 M-6007-M50C $7,878

2018 Coyote 5.0L Manual Transmission Control Pack M-6017-M50B $1,672.50


a difference of $1,477.11 or 18% more cost for 6% more power... (435HP vs 460HP)

[BEAR-AvHistory]

You should look to places like Summit or other FFR COYOTE packagers.

They have a pretty complete, fuel pump, starter, alternator, belts, MOROSO pan, etc 435BHP COYOTE for $10K

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...tcombocontents

[Avalanche325]

The only thing wrong with a Coyote is the packaging. They are physically HUGE. Besides that, they are a great engine. Price-wise, they are easily $2K - $3k more than an SBF with similar HP.

I also work on computers all day. I wanted my Cobra to be low tech old school. It gets terrible mileage, needs to warm up, smells like gas and exhaust, is loud, snotty and high strung. PERFECT! The Coyote would be more of a turn the key and go experience. Either engine will make the car go down the road.

The thing that I wouldn't want going either way is electric power steering. Not a fan as of yet, due to the feel or lack thereof. But, you do want power steering in my opinion.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I know this is an old thread but still relevant. I just priced out a Coyote package for a potential client build today; figure $14K for engine, trans, controls and supporting systems. Compare that to similar output from a Windsor and it's pretty much a wash.

Jeff

[j.miller]

I agree with you Jeff.....the difference being the Coyote has so much more usable power and better street manners then a carbureted small block.

[JohnK]

I also work on computers all day. I wanted my Cobra to be low tech old school. It gets terrible mileage, needs to warm up, smells like gas and exhaust, is loud, snotty and high strung. PERFECT! The Coyote would be more of a turn the key and go experience. Either engine will make the car go down the road.

Honestly, I think that this is exactly what the choice comes down to. Do you want that old school vibe with all that entails (both positive and negative) or do you want a modern turnkey solution. I've got a '67 Mustang convertible with a 351W that nobody else in the family will ride in because you end up smelling like gas all day after you ride in it, so I went Coyote on my build, but I love both options.

[caesarmascetti]

my 2 cents, when you figure in all the costs, the added complexity (electronics) and the packaging issues what real advnatage does a Coyote offer over say this:

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363FT

I mean a ford performance 363 crate motor built on the 302 Boss block puts out over 500hp and has none of the packaging concerns or the electronic complexity

[mike223]

my 2 cents, when you figure in all the costs, the added complexity (electronics) and the packaging issues what real advnatage does a Coyote offer over say this:

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363FT

I mean a ford performance 363 crate motor built on the 302 Boss block puts out over 500hp and has none of the packaging concerns or the electronic complexity

Several of us in the 500hp / 500ftlb range are convinced that anything much over 400 / 400 just makes you more traction limited in third gear 70-100mph range - read that as spinning the tires in third gear at half throttle - how fast do you want to do that?

It's no faster to 100 (unless maybe you want to run drag slicks) - just more failure / disaster modes + expense.


Just food for thought for those in the planning stages.

[edwardb]

The only thing wrong with a Coyote is the packaging. They are physically HUGE. Besides that, they are a great engine. Price-wise, they are easily $2K - $3k more than an SBF with similar HP.

I also work on computers all day. I wanted my Cobra to be low tech old school. It gets terrible mileage, needs to warm up, smells like gas and exhaust, is loud, snotty and high strung. PERFECT! The Coyote would be more of a turn the key and go experience. Either engine will make the car go down the road.

my 2 cents, when you figure in all the costs, the added complexity (electronics) and the packaging issues what real advantage does a Coyote offer over say this:

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-Z2363FT

I mean a ford performance 363 crate motor built on the 302 Boss block puts out over 500hp and has none of the packaging concerns or the electronic complexity.

I'm a self-admitted Coyote enthusiast, so of course have to comment. I've done two builds with a SBF. First was stock block 302 that was punched out a little, had aftermarket heads, pistons, cam, QuickFuel carb, etc. Ran well and still going strong with its current owner. Second was a pretty high end DART 347 build with forged Scat internals, big AFR heads, custom cam, another QuickFuel carb, etc. Took the time to do a full-on wideband O2 assisted tune on the carb and it ran perfectly. Probably about as good as a carb can run. Was very strong as expected, and is also still going strong with its current owner. After some arm-twisting, decided to try the Coyote on my Anniversary build. Now driven two seasons and I'm fully won over. It has smooth easy power that's as mild or wild as you want. HP and torque of my Gen 2 Coyote is probably similar to the DART 347 build. But it just feels stronger and quicker, and bottom line for me it's easier and more fun to drive. No brainer for me that my current Coupe build would also be a Coyote.

As far as comparisons go, IMO to be fair you need to compare using EFI. It just has too many advantages to ignore and is one of the reasons the Coyote works as well as it does. The Ford Boss 363 is a nice engine. Kind of a big brother to the DART 347 I did. But dress it out with the pieces it doesn't come with, including EFI, and it's going to be more expensive than a Coyote. I've done the math because my Anniversary build started life to be a 427 small block EFI build. Doing an apples-to-apples analysis, that engine was going to be several thousand more than the Coyote I ended up with.

Packaging? Yes it's tight in a Roadster. But it's totally sorted and fits. Used to be a compromise to footbox space. No longer. Once it's in, you probably won't have to touch it. There is literally nothing in the maintenance requirements for anything other than oil changes for 100K miles. Pretty crazy. Fit in the Gen 3 Coupe BTW, which has more room, is even less of an issue. Wiring? Yes it's more, maybe. But if you can put the RF harness in one of these the Coyote harness is a breeze. If you're doing EFI, the wiring actually ends up being pretty similar.

For sure you can do cheaper engines than a Coyote. They're not cheap and not for everyone. I get that. But if you really compare fairly across the board, they are a good value for what they are. In the end the overriding decision point IMO is whether you want a more vintage old-school engine or a newer modern engine. There's no right or wrong answer here. They look different, sound different, and it's a personal choice of what's important to you. I've taken a whole bunch of prospective and current owners for rides in my Coyote powered Anniversary Roadster. All left very impressed. It's hard not to. That's not to say every one decided on the Coyote, but worth saying. These cars are a blast no matter how you power them.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Electrical complexity? If you call connecting 4 wires complex then, yeah, I guess so.



Jeff

[Misterfubar]

Electrical complexity? If you call connecting 4 wires complex then, yeah, I guess so.



Jeff

I'd rather wire a Coyote from scratch than tune a carb. Fortunately, I didn't have to do that. I just plugged in a few harnesses and hooked up those 4 wires.

[scottamann]

+1 on calling Mike Forte for the Coyote package.
Great guy, great service.
Hard to beat.

[dhuff]

Not that I'm one to talk, but there is money to be saved with a Ford aluminum bell housing vs. the Quicktime bell. Also the nodular flywheel that comes with the engine is completely usable and most do.

Yes if the Gen 2 coyote is used. the flywheel that comes on the Gen 3 coyote is not suitable.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

COYOTE - Build it, tune it, forget it. Just change the oil, filters & put gas in the tank. Hard to beat as a DD that is maintenance free & very strong. If you drive it every day like I do you will get the side benefit of visiting the gas station less often

You also get the privilege of pissing the purists off when they see it.

[toadster]

You should look to places like Summit or other FFR COYOTE packagers.

They have a pretty complete, fuel pump, starter, alternator, belts, MOROSO pan, etc 435BHP COYOTE for $10K

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...tcombocontents

wow even with the oil cooler delete, one less step!
do they notch the dipstick location too?

[BEAR-AvHistory]

wow even with the oil cooler delete, one less step!
do they notch the dipstick location too?

Not sure what you mean, but have no issues with the dipstick location & stock stick. Engine comes in a box straight from FORD as built. You bolt on the lose parts starter, alternator belt, alternator, swap FFR headers, oil pan & oil pickup tube, clutch, transmission, fuel pump, gas filter. fuel pressure regulator & its good to go. As said wiring is plug in the plugs & connect 4 wires.



You require a tune but the side benefit is it will raise the horsepower.

Have 10,000 miles, so far 3 annual oil changes & other then playing with a different intake for looks & removal of some low end torque along with some dress up items have not touched the engine.



Can easily spin the tires in 3rd with Nitto 555R 315/35 tires so over say 400/425 a lot is bragging rights rather then actual street performance.

IIRC the only thing I bought outside of the engine trans package was the Spectre intake tubes.

FWIW Mike Forte does a lot of the assembly work like trimming the TKO 600 tail shaft (I have air powered cutter) so depending on price its something to look at. Have other stuff from Mike & the service is good.



Prices have gone up since 2013 but IIRC I paid at the time around $11/12K for the Coyote/TKO-600 FFR package. Got the Spectre intake tubes from Amazon. Was less then I could do buying ala carte parts.

[toadster]

Not sure what you mean, but have no issues with the dipstick location & stock stick.

i think the moroso pans have been updated, just was making sure (link for reference)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...oso#post238901

[BEAR-AvHistory]

i think the moroso pans have been updated, just was making sure (link for reference)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...oso#post238901

OK understand now. Was one of the group that found part of the sump trap was interfering with the dip stick when we tested it on the original Coyote. They sent us replacement plates & changed their production process. MOROSO was very accommodating & did not duck the problem but fixed it & made us whole.



The same thing showed up later in the production run (when the next generation Coyote came out??) but I did not follow it.

Should be old threads on it late 2013 early 2014 on the original issue.

[mike223]

Can easily spin the tires in 3rd with Nitto 555R 315/35 tires so over say 400/425 a lot is bragging rights rather then actual street performance.

Not Coyote related, but this bears repeating.

You can't put any more hp/tq than that on the pavement below 100mph on any "street tire" - you're just making it easier (+ easier) to make a huge operator input error by exceeding those numbers for "street use".

[chrisarella]

I thought I’d add this to consider as well: if you compare any old school engine to a Coyote, spend the same, and see the same peak HP/TQ, you’ll find the Coyote has a ridiculously wider power band that you just can’t get in a carbureted application. Power down low? Check. Power up high? Check. Smooth running when cold, hot, high altitude or sea-level? 7500 redline? Decent gas mileage? Daily driver reliability? Check, check check and double-check!

[FFinisher]

True cost is $13499 plus headers.

Factory Five offers a complete package, bolted together with the correct oil pan, clutch pressure plate, fork, bolts etc. mounts, engine cover etc. I would call Tony at FFR and get all the details.

They include the air filter stuff, the alternator, the fuel system, including regulator, fittings, hoses, gauge...... everything start to finish.

IF you want to bolt it together, you can save $500 and they will ship you just the parts.

IF you get it bolted together you take the four bolts off the engine, two bolts off the trans, and put it in the car.

GP headers? better than FFR headers? Interesting, its the same part up to now.

Going forward FFR has new header four into four with a ball and socket at the merge collector for adjustability.


For my money and completeness FFR package is the way to go. Plus purchase their headers.


Its no secret I am a big time Coyote Fan!

[JohnK]

i think the moroso pans have been updated, just was making sure (link for reference)

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...oso#post238901

I received my coyote and Moroso pan a few months ago and ran into this issue, so I wouldn't necessarily assume it's been resolved. From what I understand
it varies from engine to engine depending on how exactly the dipstick enters the pan area.

[Avalanche325]

COYOTE - Build it, tune it, forget it. Just change the oil, filters & put gas in the tank. Hard to beat as a DD that is maintenance free & very strong. If you drive it every day like I do you will get the side benefit of visiting the gas station less often

You also get the privilege of pissing the purists off when they see it.

"Build it, tune it, forget it. Just change the oil, filters & put gas in the tank". This is exactly the same for an SBF even with a carb. I don't understand why people think that carbs have to be tuned constantly. They simply don't. Once they are tuned....they are tuned. I haven't touched mine in five years. Cruising, autocross, and track.

Visiting the gas station less often, I'll give you that one.

[ckrueger]

Mine starts and idles every time, everyday. Glad I went with the Coyote. More power than you need and you will love the torque band.

[Avalanche325]

Just to show that I am no Coyote hater, here is what a Coyote does better than a carbureted SBF:

1. Gets better gas mileage.
2. Is quieter at partial throttle. They get just as loud when they rev up.
3. Does not need to warm up before you take off or give it some serious gas.
4. Doesn't smell like gas. (plus or minus depending on just how much of a gear head you are)
5. Revs higher.
6. I would also bet that they would generally last longer for a given HP level. But that could be offset by higher rebuild costs. Opinions on this one?

"It starts every time", "has lots of power", "power down low", "power up high", "dependable", aren't Coyote specific. My SBF fits all of those. If we are doing a why it's better list, let's keep it real.

Idles when cold is directly related to how nasty your cam is and if you have a choke that is set correctly. A mild 347 with a choke will start right up and idle. I have 500hp, a nasty cam and no choke. I do usually have to start mine a couple times and work the throttle for several minutes when it is cold. That is actually part of what I wanted in a Cobra. It is louder than I would like, even with Flowmasters. But that idle sound will give you goosebumps.

Coyotes are great engines. My only complaint is that they are physically huge making them harder to work on in a Cobra.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just to show that I am no Coyote hater, here is what a Coyote does better than a carbureted SBF:


2. Is quieter at partial throttle. They get just as loud when they rev up.

Coyotes are great engines. My only complaint is that they are physically huge making them harder to work on in a Cobra.

Think the whole statement is fair. Think these are two big ones that are overlooked big time. Have a radio in the car & despite all the warnings about not being able to hear it around town hear it just fine. At part throttle its pretty quiet. At WOT & any quick throttle opening its very loud. Over the road wind noise kills the radio before the exhaust noise in 5th does.

In the COBRA it depends on what you are working on. The whole bottom end is open to direct access as is the top end intake, plugs, coils fuel rails etc. Front accessories are also easy to remove. Headers will require sheet metal cutouts or an engine lift to get at the bolts.

Since I put the car on the road all issues have been external to the engine. Dead Fuel pump, bad O2 sensor & cracks in the J-pipe welds.

ckrueger's post sums it up very well, its install tune & fuhgeddaboudit. Also for the nervous if you get it in the box from FORD it has a 2 year warranty.