Admin Commentary on Elan NP01 "Build Thread" <-- Please read

[David Hodgkins]

I've been watching this thread from it's inception and there's something I gotta say. I don't think it belongs on this site, being both a direct competitor to FFR and a "Factory Build".

There has been one other non-FFR build thread in the OT forum about a Ultima GTR. The owner-builder still has his multi award-winning MKIII roadster and asked permission. As I watched that build come together It didn't really occur to me that it was inappropriate. It was a fellow builder expanding his capabilities and learning. There's a ton of craftsmanship in that build and it is a stunning ride. But there is the difference. I guess I don't like this thread because it strikes me as a big NP01 commercial and I'm not comfortable with that.

There has always been, and should continue to be, off topic threads about all manners of ideas and creation and building (there's not enough of that here currently IMO). However, starting a build thread about a factory built racer that will spend time on the same tracks in the same races as FFR is not appropriate. It's just not. And I hope you can understand the difference.

I'm not just closing the thread or posting this in it because I am certain there will be pushback. So as to not completely trash the thread I'm creating a new one to get feedback on my reasoning. If you having something to say about it pro or con, let's hear it.

[FFRSpec72]

I understand your rationale and tend to agree and support, its not a build, it's like having a thread on my Focus RS being built by Ford. I do think that when the time comes it will be appropriate to discuss how the cars stack up in racing ability as I'm sure I will be racing against one of these this year at some point.

[MisterAdam]

he is building a car!! he is sharing knowledge. It is in the "off topic discussion" forum.....leave him alone. it is not offensive so why would you censor what i can read?

[myjones]

David
I think the fact that he has built a FF kit IIRC and that there are a lot of shared skills here makes it less obvious what the right thing to do is.
It seems like he is building it for himself to race and that he plans to keep it. If he was building it to sell and/or bad mouthing FF stuff in his
build thread those would push me to say ban it. The fact that he may compete against FF kits just seems like fair play and should elevate
both products, competition good Mkay;>) I don't even have a problem with him selling it here IF he races it himself for at least a season.
Beyond that he seems like a serial builder which is what has given us some of the best builders, vendors and resources on both boards.

If I missed something on the facts let me know and it could change my opinion and thanks for taking the time to ask how we feel about it.
DB HEMI33

[Jacob McCrea]

It looks like Chad has contributed a staggering amount of knowledge to the 818 forum, and in all likelihood will continue to do so. I'd let the Elan build thread stay, and would be disappointed to see it end.

[6t8dart]

I understand the rationale. I agree with you, nothing against the other car, but this is a factory sponsored FFR site. I would not expect to find articles about any other car.

[ursa5000]

The Golden Rule still applies. "He who has the gold makes the rules."

It's FFR's site, they make the rules.

That all said.. perhaps you can "grandfather" this particular thread from the rules.

Da Bear

[first time builder]

David, I agree that this is A Factory Five Web forum . I also note that the issue is on the "off topic" section. Is there anything in the Forum rules that state no NON FFR cars are to be discussed or featured in builds ? If so then it should be shut down, if not it should be allowed to continue. In the future if the rules are changed thats another story.
Have you discussed this with Dave?

Kenny

[FFRSpec72]

David, I agree that this is A Factory Five Web forum . I also note that the issue is on the "off topic" section. Is there anything in the Forum rules that state no NON FFR cars are to be discussed or featured in builds ? If so then it should be shut down, if not it should be allowed to continue. In the future if the rules are changed thats another story.
Have you discussed this with Dave?

Kenny

It says "Post topics unrelated to builds, cruises, shows, etc. Sorry, no political discussions are allowed."

[AC Bill]

I've never even looked at them, so it doesn't faze me one way or another.

Personally, I can't see somebody wanting to build a Roadster or Coupe which may have been their dream car for years, suddenly switching to another replica, just because someone else is building one. With one click of a mouse, they can read all about other replicas anyways. If they learn something that might help with their FFR build, great.

[frankeeski]

I sold my 818R after dumping $35k+ into it. It was a wild ride of ups and downs. But enough of that- It's time for the new race car.

Seems pretty clear to me just reading his first post on the other thread he was not happy with the results of the 818. That and the fact he no longer owns the car. I don't believe that excludes him from contributing here but the fact his opening statements does seam like a carefully crafted sales pitch just kind of strike me as wrong. The link to the factory video on Youtube seem to clearly violate the rules here. I applaud all who take on the build of any car, be it a restoration, component car or a race car. However, this thread would be much better served if it appeared in a forum that was geared directly towards this car. I read and lived through that entire thread about his 818S and quite honestly wish I could erase a good portion of it from my memory. I hear the mention of this being in off-topic but unlike the other FF forum there is no "other vehicle" off-topic here. I do see a few unrelated car builds going on in off-topic but I would assume those were all approved by the administrators to appear there, I don't know. I also believe those threads all have one other thing in common, those guy all still own a Factory 5 vehicle. They also actively participate in the forum in other areas of the forum, not just their own threads. The bottom line is; this is Factory Five's sandbox, it's up to them how this is handled

[ehansen007]

I just sent a PM to Chad asking him nicely to remove the "salesy' lingo in the post. Other than that I think it's a good post. I like reading it. If we don't hear back, we can do the edit to make it less of a referral post and more informational. He's a good guy.

e

[305mouse]

With the amount of R&D that Chad has put into his 818 before selling and his love of racing, I don't see why you would shut down an OT thread. It's another racer sharing knowledge with the community. Especially since a lot of the 818 builders are very interested with his outcome. It's not like the build is in the same price range as the 818, I would even say they are not marketed at the same type of buyer. Chad put down some impressive times with the 818 and I think we all want to see how his new build compares to those.

[C.Plavan]

Wow- just saw this.........

1. I'm in Sales and Marketing for a career. I'm sorry if I get excited about something. As for "Salesy" I'm sure I sold a few 818R's from my build thread....... Heck- I had the only racing 818R in the country for some time. Where are the Factory 818R's?
2. This is the OFF TOPIC Forum
3. I was ASKED to share the info on the car in the OT forum.
4. I think I have paid my dues with the knowledge I have provided. I love seeing some of my orginal ideas making their way to other builds (AND FFR 818R builds...)

The 818R and NP01 are no where near the same entry point or build quality- Two different animals. I'm guessing the 818R will be faster due to the HP/WT ratio, but racing against monster Corvette's- HP will always win in the straights. I will fill safer in a NP01 racing than any open car anyday. Plus this is a SPEC car- meant to race against equal cars.

As For my quote "I sold my 818R after dumping $35k+ into it. It was a wild ride of ups and downs. But enough of that- It's time for the new race car." Take that statement however you want. There is nothing misleading about that quote- You can look at my build thread that many people have read, and hopefully learn from it.

I will say if FFR racing decides to censor my posts in a OFF TOPIC forum, that I was asked by fellow builders to start, then I would not want my name associated with FFR at all. So delete everything, don't pick and choose.

This is ridiculous. But you know what, its OK because its an OFF TOPIC forum. I do not make anyone follow or click on it....

[David Hodgkins]

Wow- just saw this.........

1. I'm in Sales and Marketing for a career. I'm sorry if I get excited about something. As for "Salesy" I'm sure I sold a few 818R's from my build thread....... Heck- I had the only racing 818R in the country for some time. Where are the Factory 818R's?
2. This is the OFF TOPIC Forum
3. I was ASKED to share the info on the car in the OT forum.
4. I think I have paid my dues with the knowledge I have provided. I love seeing some of my orginal ideas making their way to other builds (AND FFR 818R builds...)

The 818R and NP01 are no where near the same entry point or build quality- Two different animals. I'm guessing the 818R will be faster due to the HP/WT ratio, but racing against monster Corvette's- HP will always win in the straights. I will fill safer in a NP01 racing than any open car anyday. Plus this is a SPEC car- meant to race against equal cars.

As For my quote "I sold my 818R after dumping $35k+ into it. It was a wild ride of ups and downs. But enough of that- It's time for the new race car." Take that statement however you want. There is nothing misleading about that quote- You can look at my build thread that many people have read, and hopefully learn from it.

I will say if FFR racing decides to censor my posts in a OFF TOPIC forum, that I was asked by fellow builders to start, then I would not want my name associated with FFR at all. So delete everything, don't pick and choose.

This is ridiculous. But you know what, its OK because its an OFF TOPIC forum. I do not make anyone follow or click on it....

Make NO MISTAKE Chad. This isn't FFR deciding to censer your posts, it ME. I started this thread to talk about this issue, FFR didn't. And with the tone of your reply, you seem to think if you post in Off Topic, it, and you, are untouchable. It's not. And you are not.

This site was built to allow the FFR community to build fellowship through building FFR cars. It's called TheFactoryFiveForum, not AllRaceCarTalk. It's a dedicated Factory Five site, and not Elan's. If I'm asked to allow another build thread by an enthusiastic FFR builder, a guy who is excited about FFR and the fellowship here I MAY allow it. But not when the underlying "ATTITUDE" is, shall we say, a little combative.

In short, if you want to continue to post here, a change of attitude is in order. If not, then we will part ways.

[C.Plavan]

Make NO MISTAKE Chad. This isn't FFR deciding to censer your posts, it ME. I started this thread to talk about this issue, FFR didn't. And with the tone of your reply, you seem to think if you post in Off Topic, it, and you, are untouchable. It's not. And you are not.

This site was built to allow the FFR community to build fellowship through building FFR cars. It's called TheFactoryFiveForum, not AllRaceCarTalk. It's a dedicated Factory Five site, and not Elan's. If I'm asked to allow another build thread by an enthusiastic FFR builder, a guy who is excited about FFR and the fellowship here I MAY allow it. But not when the underlying "ATTITUDE" is, shall we say, a little combative.

In short, if you want to continue to post here, a change of attitude is in order. If not, then we will part ways.

I think you should re-read your post about "Attitude". My attitude is more than fair. Let's let the builders decide.

I'm being blindsided, so I was explaining my post in an Off topic forum.

Next time may I suggest you give me a heads up before posting. I did not learn of this thread until other members started sending me PM's. It could of been handled differently.

[redfogo]

I have never seen any other forum not allow you to post about other cars in the off-topic section. Seems a bit out of hand to to delete Chads posts. Or block him. I am close with my MR2 community and post my 818C build on their site no one complains...

I get that this is a FFR sponsored forum, but to sensor "non offensive" content seems a bit opinionated. Regardless if chad had ups or downs on his 818 build those things need to be said so that people understand what they are getting themselves into. I'm sure FFR takes some of the peoples opinions and uses them to improve their cars. We can't just pretend like the FFR kit is flawless and perfect in every way just because its FFR sponsored site.

I understand this is a FFR site and its not an all car website, but if chad made friends here which I'm sure he did he wants to share it with those friends.

If we are really concerned with the image of FFR, stop letting people post there FFR kits for next to nothing that really hurts the image. Seeing complete 818 cars selling for almost kit price ouch..

[David Hodgkins]

I closed the thread.

[D2W]

I've got to say I'm also a little surprised by this thread. David, I think you could have handled this situation better. Plavan was asked by multiple members to post about his elan build and I don't really see his current thread as an advertisement. Just a cool car. He may no longer be an FFR owner, but his build was a wealth of information. I'm not an FFR owner and don't plan to be one soon, I just come here for the wealth of info and to see what other guys are building. This site and the other forum have always been a great spot to pick up cool ideas that I may be able to apply to my other projects without having to wade through a bunch of crap of guys arguing. If this site is intended only as a FFR advertisement site of owners and fanboys then maybe you should ban me too.

[C.Plavan]

I'm so disappointed right now in you David. So are others. Closing threads....

[mikeinatlanta]

Sorry David, but me thinks you should leave the thread open.

[David Hodgkins]

I'm so disappointed right now in you David. So are others. Closing threads....

ONE off topic thread.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think you should keep the NP01 thread open if for no other reason it's a mid engine sports car with advanced aerodynamics that we can learn from and copy on to the evolving 818. There will be lots of innovations for the 818 that will come from us watching Chad's car get built, then even more as it races and we see what works and what doesn't. Please re-open his thread.

[2FAST4U]

I vote for leaving it for now. Any fabrication skills could be useful to our builds. Only if he starts pushing sales would I first caution him, then close/ban if he continues

[MisterAdam]

sounds like David Hodgkins is the one with an attitude. why don't you shut down the whole "off topic" forum....you can't have it both ways.

[Mountain-Metalworks]

I closed the thread.

Seriously? Did this just really happen? With the level of complete and utter animosity that fills the interwebs these days, here is a meaningful and relevant build(albeit not an FFR...), that in no way demonizes the site sponsor(FFR), on an auto-sports site, in an off-topic forum. The amount of in depth and actionable information that Plavan has added to the FFR and 818 communities for a significant amount of time, should at least buy some leeway.

If a 1st time poster started the exact same thread, I could at least comprehend shutting down the thread, even if it did offer up relatable information to the FFR and racing community. But here we've got a past/recent FFR owner, that extinguished a SERIOUS amount of effort building a 818, and guiding MANY others in their same quest, that is getting singled out for posting a thread that a significant audience wanted(and asked) to hear about.

There is not a single quote from the original post that could be construed as blasting Factory Five. The challenges that Plavan faced during his long 818 journey are valuable lessons for a good number of other current and potential builders. I don't recall any quotes from his many posts that directly called out FFR in either an undesirable and/or blatantly negative manner which the company or any existing or prospective buyers would deem offensive.

So if no previous posts were the driving factor in this thread being shut down, and the current post didn't bash FFR or it's customers in any way, and the thread is directly related to the passion that each of us has in building, owning, and/or racing a 4-wheeled vehicle, please David, explain in much greater detail why THIS ONE post is being singled out.

Per your quote, "There has been one other non-FFR build thread in the OT forum about a Ultima GTR. The owner-builder still has his multi award-winning MKIII roadster and asked permission."

So if Plavan had asked 'permission' to post, it would have been allowed. Or had Plavan's EXCEPTIONAL 818 been "multi-award winning" in someone's eyes, this would have been allowed? Craziness.... pure craziness....

Both David and Plavan's workmanship, candor, and dedication to FFR and the motorsports industry shouldn't be questioned. But the single-handed closing of the original thread in a god-like manner is beyond comprehension in the context of an off-topic and relatable discussion.

<stepping off podium/soapbox now...>

-TJ

[ram_g]

Never noticed that thread until today, probably wouldn't have except for this hoopla. Read it in full. Can't see why it's objectionable in the least. Suggest that the right thing to do is to reopen it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Every time I log onto this forum, first thing I would look for is a post by Chad or on Chad's thread.
I would say that in the 818 community, Chad has supplied more real world information support than anyone.

Some have said (including Chad) that he is doing a lot of R&D on the 818R.
I believe most, if not all active participants on the 818 forum would agree with this statement.

Most on here are first time builders and have never raced on a track.
Chad was the best teacher you could have when he would share real world experience. Weather it be in a 818 or a NP01.

By closing his thread, he will leave this forum.
The BIG LOSER will be every one on the FFR forum now and in the future.

Bob_n_Cincy

[matteo92065]

Every time I log onto this forum, first thing I would look for is a post by Chad or on Chad's thread.
I would say that in the 818 community, Chad has supplied more real world information support than anyone.

Some have said (including Chad) that he is doing a lot of R&D on the 818R.
I believe most, if not all active participants on the 818 forum would agree with this statement.

Most on here are first time builders and have never raced on a track.
Chad was the best teacher you could have when he would share real world experience. Weather it be in a 818 or a NP01.

By closing his thread, he will leave this forum.
The BIG LOSER will be every one on the FFR forum now and in the future.

Bob_n_Cincy

X2 (now more than two characters)

[redfogo]

For being a feedback thread, sure seems like the plan was always to shut it down even though most people want it open... This is what kills communities

[129st]

I closed the thread.

I respectfully disagree with closing the thread. Chad has huge knowledge of the 818R. His comments/comparisons with the NP01 mechanicals was increasing the overall 818R body of knowledge.

I was looking forward to the NP01 on-track differences to the 818R. Looks like now I'll have to go to Facebook (a much less capable forum for this type of information sharing.)

Sometimes hearing what is wrong with a product is the most valuable information gained.

[myjones]

Not anymore
I (was) OK with the thread until CP and others came out with all the attitude that turned into personal attacks, now I'm solidly behind David closing it.

Having different opinions and expressing them politely is fine here/with me but when it flips to a personal attack because of the different opinions THAT is
what kills a community. Regardless of the topic or part of the board you post in this and every other forum I have ever been on has the no personal attacks rule.
Think about it
DB

[AZPete]

Like myjones, I support David's closing the thread. This is not the place for personal attacks. This is sounding like national politics!

[C.Plavan]

Just to be clear. I made NO PERSONAL ATTACK. Thanks for the support guys. This is rather silly.

[frankeeski]

You know, I was going to just check out of this thread after I said my peace. But so many of you seem hell bent on being on the wrong side of this and keep blaming the wrong people/person for the closure of the thread. Many of you have said it could have been "handled better" and your right. Chad could have sent one of the administrators a PM and asked if it would be OK to post a build thread of his new race car and then appropriately worded and presented the thread in a manner that DIDN'T make it appear like a sales pamphlet. Instead he posted it and what? He figured it's better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission? Oops, that's right, he came to this thread with an attitude. He never said "hey I'm sorry, guess I should have asked". Instead he said something to the effect that he deserves to be able to do whatever he wants because he's "paid his dues". I'll tell you something, my arms aren't long enough to pat myself on the back like that.

I started a thread in off topic some time ago about trailer safety and asked for permission before hand. You know what David, what's good for one is good for all. If it will set a precedent for future threads, lock or delete mine as well. I'll understand that until such time the forum sees fit to have a category for threads like mine that it has no place here. I won't pack up my toys and pound my feet like a 4 year old.

[2bking]

I doubt that I can add anything here that hasn't been said in one way or another but I was guilty of starting a thread that violated the rules and had it closed. Sure, I thought that I should have been contacted personally before it was closed but I sent a PM to the administrator and explained the reason for my posting. Even though it wasn't exactly per the rules, they reopened it with conditions which I followed and it was allowed to play out. Chad chose a different route and the thread was closed. Consequences come from the paths we choose.

[ben1272]

I agree that it does not belong on this forum. Funny, I almost started a post about this very thought a few days ago but decided not to. It rubbed me wrong that he seems to have tried the 818R, was un-satisfied, sold it, and now is making what he considers to be a superior race car. I'm glad he is happy, but I think he should share his buld on his own site or on the Elan builders site. Posting it here is like free advertising for Elan. (even though it IS interesting and educational to read about the build).

[Evan78]

Make NO MISTAKE Chad. This isn't FFR deciding to censer your posts, it ME. I started this thread to talk about this issue, FFR didn't. And with the tone of your reply, you seem to think if you post in Off Topic, it, and you, are untouchable. It's not. And you are not.

This site was built to allow the FFR community to build fellowship through building FFR cars. It's called TheFactoryFiveForum, not AllRaceCarTalk. It's a dedicated Factory Five site, and not Elan's. If I'm asked to allow another build thread by an enthusiastic FFR builder, a guy who is excited about FFR and the fellowship here I MAY allow it. But not when the underlying "ATTITUDE" is, shall we say, a little combative.

In short, if you want to continue to post here, a change of attitude is in order. If not, then we will part ways.

David - my understanding is that this forum is property of FFR and that you are a moderator, which means that your actions are going to be perceived as endorsed or directed by FFR. Perhaps I am misinformed, but if I am not, there is no separating you from FFR when you are dealing things of this nature.

I can understand the need to allocate resources appropriately, so if someone created something that somehow required an exorbitant amount of staff or computing resources, it should be restricted. The NP01 thread doesn't fit into those categories. As a race car that can't be street registered with a base price of $72k, it doesn't seem like something many potential FFR customers would purchase instead of an FFR car. Chad is an example of one such person, so perhaps that is enough for FFR to consider it inappropriate. I haven't read it, but the Ultima thread appears to be more of a competing product since it can be a street car and price is similar to the NP01.

Personally, I appreciate learning about the NP01 here since I come here anyway, but I suspect that potential buyers of dedicated racecars are active in conversations beyond the FFR community and would learn of the NP01 regardless of if there's any info on it here. I don't see much importance in the etiquette on this. Either this type of content is allowed or not. Seeking permission shouldn't really matter.

[Dave Smith]

My guys (and Dave Hodgkins) told me about this thread and I figured I would read thru it and weigh in since FFR does own the site and at the end of the day, while we don’t actively manage anything here, we are sorta responsible. I’ve had a big can of Monster Energy drink this morning, so I’ll probably take up too much bandwidth in my reply, but I think this is a very very important subject and merits some careful consideration.

Right up front, I feel the need to mention that this site doesn’t really make any money. At the very outset, the charter was clear. This forum was to exist to BUILD the FFR community rather than to make a big bag of money. The vendor ad rates were set to cover the operational costs, that’s it. The value of this forum was also to counter/offset and provide a competitor to the other forum in order to prevent them from jacking up ad rates on our community of suppliers after that site was bought by Autoguide.com. That company is a multi-million dollar company that owns hundreds of forums and sells block advertising to companies like Chrysler, Geiko Insurance, and refinance companies (Viagra ads are next).

I saw that the entire FFR cottage industry of suppliers was threatened, and that is a big deal to me because our community is not just customers, it is customers who also supply parts to the community. Russ Thompson sells parts to Coupe guys but trust me, it is a labor of love for Russ and while he sells parts, Ive watched him contribute to the community for almost 20 years! The vendors aren’t getting rich. This isn’t the place anyone comes to make a killing on wall street. Anyone who builds custom cars understands that we are fortunate to do this and if we can pay our bills at the same time, we’re “Livin the dream”. This was THE reason I bought out my brother almost 5 years ago. He wanted to “harvest” the company and I felt the company, while technically mine, was built by the entire team here and my goal was never to sell the company. I had already achieved my goal in being able to do this for a living, so I was happy to go deeply into debt to own the company outright and keep doing this as long as I could!

I should also make it clear that Chad and all of the amazing customers who contribute posts, share builds, share tech knowledge, and selflessly contribute to the community in thousands of ways… none of them are paid. It is a lifestyle and a fun pastime and ALL of us should be on the same page and dedicated to helping others thru this journey. My gut tells me the right thing to do is to simply keep the threads (and others) in OFF TOPIC, since that is where they belong. I respect Dave Hodgkins and his fellow moderators and their tremendous work here on this forum. I also respect Chad and his hard work and contributions. At the very heart of this community is what you find every day here at FFR and what I witness in the genuine fellowship and stoke in the FFR community. Many of us are lifelong friends as a result of this shared passion, and while there are a few miscreants, the FFR community is first and foremost one of fellowship and giving.

Chad’s NP01 build is a really good one to take on because it shows how the way this forum is put together matters. It also shows that there are a LOT of opinions, and in a healthy community, that is a good thing. I didn’t like the set-up of the NP build. Chad, we’ve been actively working on the 818R and comparisons to the NP01 are silly as it is a log scale more expensive. Nevertheless, there are GREAT customer builds that go in and out of FFR context. Erik Treves has built a ton of cars, mostly FFR, but I recall his super 7 project and these are all interesting.

Should Dave have shut down the post? Maybe he made a mistake. I can see that it sure did sound like an advertisement for the Elan and perhaps better suited to their site, the NASA forum or even grassroots motorsports forum, but there’s still a place here as long as it is constructive and BUILDING the FFR forum. I can see how Chad’s intro could be seen both ways. Chad, you have to agree that the car build is an odd fit, at least the way you intro’d it, but you've contributed so much to the forum and I'd hate to see that end. You are valued my friend!

As far as the policy of deleting things, I think in five years, Dave has locked out only a handful of threads out of 225,440 posts, I can’t personally think of more than 5 that were actually deleted! That's real freedom of exchange and no-one can say this is a shill site for FFR (I have a few particularly painful posts that prove that!). Dave’s data shows that you everyone has a voice and everyone can slam FFR anytime they want. While inclusion is the rule, sometimes people take advantage of this. I personally know for a fact that our competitors frequently post here and frequently PM our community members. Our openness makes us susceptible to being taken advantage of. Nevertheless, the very open policy of free communication on our forum is amazing and one of our strengths. Try and log onto the Superformance Forum.. Oh, right, you have to be an OWNER and only then can you join. TheFactoryFiveForum set forth a charter of INCLUSION rather than EXCLUSIVITY.

This whole thing reminds me of the the situation at the annual HB cruise-in. We’ve welcomed non-ffr makes, but now we’re running out of room so we HAVE to put FFR customers first and reluctantly can’t accommodate other cars. We may still make an exception or two for those guys who are just the best people in the world and are unfortunately driving some other car

Let’s do our best to include as many people and opinions as possible. When push comes to shove, I’ll always default to the charter of the forum and protect the FFR customers first. Maybe simply go off topic where it started and delete any direct links to another manufacturer.
That’s the LAST Monster Energy drink for me!

Dave Smith

[Gumball]

That Dave took the time to review and respond speaks volumes for why I'm an FFR owner and a proud member of this community.

Motor on.